Housing/building market....
|
Lordfly Digeridoo
Prim Orchestrator
Join date: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 3,628
|
05-08-2005 10:31
So, this is my semi-annual foray into asking the state of the housing/construction sector of the economy in SL.
How much have you seen prefabs selling for? Custom jobs? How much are you willing to pay for prefabs/custom jobs?
Do you prefer style, or low prims?
I've been seeing some prefab houses selling for $L2500... is that normal nowadays? I've done custom jobs for cheaper.
LF
_____________________
---- http://www.lordfly.com/ http://www.twitter.com/lordfly http://www.plurk.com/lordfly
|
Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
|
05-08-2005 10:54
From: someone So, this is my semi-annual foray into asking the state of the housing/construction sector of the economy in SL.
How much have you seen prefabs selling for? Custom jobs? How much are you willing to pay for prefabs/custom jobs?
Do you prefer style, or low prims?
I've been seeing some prefab houses selling for $L2500... is that normal nowadays? I've done custom jobs for cheaper. Prefabs continue to be found in the $200-$500 range, but they have gone up to $900-$1500-$4000 even, so that $2500 is not unreasonable anymore to expect for a large, multi-storied, multi-roomed, lockable, private house with a balcony and a porch --- something many, many people are only too happy to have in this game where they are playing house, and not shooting off weapons and tinkering with scripts on the sandbox or their free 4096s or their friend's house. Most people live in the world, Lordly, and even if there are a select minority of older players who believe it is silly and lame to have houses, because there's no rain, or to have houses that look like RL, when they should have imagination in SL, well, guess what, most people live in the world, in houses that look more like RL than not. As is their right. If you check out SLEXchange.com and GIGAS' secondserver.net and sites like those, you'll see prefabs selling for $1000-$2000 -- more and more that is the case. If anything, the ease with which you can now buy things on SLExchange. com probably helped some architects market more and charge higher prices once they saw people would pay them. I've bought a fair number of them, and they are pretty good. The ones that rez out in just 2 pieces or even one piece are always the best liked because people get frustrated trying to fit them together. A lot of them are texture, not prims, and that isn't the high-brow architectural taste you are used to, but that's what sells. People want a mixture of openness and privacy, doors to walk into comfortable, excellent camera angles. The houses by Sherry Case which are around the $1000 level are very popular due to their RL-like look and good camera angles and comfort inside. Azrael Rubio has $1500 houses that are excellent, look great, feel great, rez out great. Also Tyra Valkyrie with $1000 plus various styles with a lot of realistic texturing and Sam's Dominion Custom Homes, which maybe have some lower-priced models but also are well above the range of $200 or $500 which some of the SimArtians still charge, and which some older builders still charge. I think there is a market of wealthier people willing to buy at least 8192 or more of land who can pay for a custom home with 700 prims in it that will look really good, and who knows, pay $100 RL dollars, or pay something like at least 15000 LL which is like $60. I've paid $2500 for a 100-prim small house of only 2-3 rooms and I've paid $10000 for whole towers or paid even the RL type of $50 amounts. Depends on the architect and the purpose. And a frustrating thing is that architects, or at least let's say "prefab house builders" which is what they are, seem reluctant to just publish a standard list of rates, per prim or per house. Then that would help establish the guidelines for this market. Most of them are extremely coy about pricing. And then they often try to gouge. Like I had a guy say he'd charge $1000 to rez out a copy of a deck I had just seen him rez out LOL. Another guy might charge $100 for rezzing that same deck. My advice to you Lordfly is rather than get on the forums, as you have done before, and more than semi-annually, and say that you are forced to charge only $2500 per house because people say they won't pay it, is to quit trying to reach a mass market of people who won't pay that, and scout around among the FIC and the landed gentry and club owners for people willing to pay top dollar, and literal dollar for elegant estate homes. Then you'll make the kind of money you need to make. And...if you just publish an ordinary ad, in game and on the forums, that prices your houses and services in a public way, more than $2500 per house, probably twice that, I'm confident you will have buyers, more than you know what to do with. People charging $2500 for a custom home are living in some previous era, an era where everything was supposed to be selfless altruism and the tekkie-wiki. But $2500 is $10 US. Try to understand this as an entertainment expense, a game, a hobby. If someone has already paid $9.95 a month for a premium account, and spent $40 to buy property and pay $25 tier on it, why wouldn't they be wiling to pay $25, and not $10 for a house on that expensive chunk of pixel? That's how it does work when you find that right person and that niche -- which you can only do by creating a business and putting its prices publicly in world and on the forums in a standard -- and I say this not just to you but all builders. Finding the markets is difficult due to the severe lack of capacity for advertising in the game. I've noticed a few excellent architects have quietly gone ahead without much fanfare, built very nice houses on land, and sold that land and that beautiful house in a heartbeat, for excellent prices. Go and see their ads in the back pages of "Properties for Sale" or "Land for Sale". The other thing I would say to all custom builders is that you should be honest about your time and your deadlines and say whether you can or cannot deliver and what you can realistically accomplish, rather than stringing people along.
_____________________
Rent stalls and walls for $25-$50/week 25-50 prims from Ravenglass Rentals, the mall alternative.
|
Merwan Marker
Booring...
Join date: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,706
|
05-08-2005 11:01
From: Lordfly Digeridoo So, this is my semi-annual foray into asking the state of the housing/construction sector of the economy in SL.
How much have you seen prefabs selling for? Custom jobs? How much are you willing to pay for prefabs/custom jobs?
Do you prefer style, or low prims?
I've been seeing some prefab houses selling for $L2500... is that normal nowadays? I've done custom jobs for cheaper. LF Normal is whatever anyone wants to say is normal these days LF. There is no economic stability in the game of SL. There never will be until LL makes it possible for everyone to sell their land in the same way - ie. land auction tools in the client so everyone can both auction their land, and offer it for sale as is currently possible. Until then, having fun playing this fun game we call Second Life. 
_____________________
Don't Worry, Be Happy - Meher Baba
|
Lindar Lehane
registered user
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 272
|
05-08-2005 11:11
Merwan
I think a set of "auction your own land" tools would have a very good effect. Is there a proposal in the feature list? I'll go vote for it. More I think about it, more ramifications it has.
|
Lindar Lehane
registered user
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 272
|
05-08-2005 11:13
And why just land? Baby in-game Ebay?
Maybe not - praps yard sales are more fun ? Land is the biggie.
|
blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
|
05-08-2005 11:17
Auctions reduce the liquidity of the market, which is why ebay is trying to get away from auction ads.
Also, auctions do not necesarily create fair prices because you can still set the min bid.
If everyone had to set their min auction price to 0 then yes, I could see fair prices happening.
However, what's the probability of that happening?
_____________________
Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper " Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds : " User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
|
Merwan Marker
Booring...
Join date: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,706
|
05-08-2005 11:17
From: Lindar Lehane Merwan
I think a set of "auction your own land" tools would have a very good effect. Is there a proposal in the feature list? I'll go vote for it. More I think about it, more ramifications it has. Robin suggested I set one up - but I don't support the "voting-in-forums". I've started a couple of threads regarding this over the past 7 months or so. You might want to read the discussion, there seems to some support this this, but LL has "...no plans." at this time. _/_/
_____________________
Don't Worry, Be Happy - Meher Baba
|
Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
|
05-08-2005 11:21
From: someone Originally Posted by Lindar Lehane Merwan
I think a set of "auction your own land" tools would have a very good effect. Is there a proposal in the feature list? I'll go vote for it. More I think about it, more ramifications it has.
Robin suggested I set one up - but I don't support the "voting-in-forums". I've started a couple of threads regarding this over the past 7 months or so Why do you wait for Lindens? Why not just auction yourselves? Use the ACE Raffler scripted by AKA Fool or some other similar device to run the auction.
_____________________
Rent stalls and walls for $25-$50/week 25-50 prims from Ravenglass Rentals, the mall alternative.
|
Merwan Marker
Booring...
Join date: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,706
|
05-08-2005 11:28
From: Prokofy Neva Why do you wait for Lindens? Why not just auction yourselves? Use the ACE Raffler scripted by AKA Fool or some other similar device to run the auction. Cuse to have it "built into the client" - means level playing field. Something LL doesn't take seriously - this it remain just a fun game. Lindar here's the original thread begun July/04. /13/30/18872/1.html 
_____________________
Don't Worry, Be Happy - Meher Baba
|
Juro Kothari
Like a dog on a bone
Join date: 4 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,418
|
05-08-2005 11:40
My prefabs range from $L750 - 950 and custom ranges from $L10k -65k.
|
Schwanson Schlegel
SL's Tokin' Villain
Join date: 15 Nov 2003
Posts: 2,721
|
05-08-2005 11:59
From: Merwan Marker There is no economic stability in the game of SL. There never will be until LL makes it possible for everyone to sell their land in the same way - ie. land auction tools in the client so everyone can both auction their land, and offer it for sale as is currently possible.  How is having an auction tool to sell land going to provide economic stability for SL ?
|
Lordfly Digeridoo
Prim Orchestrator
Join date: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 3,628
|
05-08-2005 11:59
From: Juro Kothari My prefabs range from $L750 - 950 and custom ranges from $L10k -65k. Christ Almighty.  *steals Juro's lindens* LF
_____________________
---- http://www.lordfly.com/ http://www.twitter.com/lordfly http://www.plurk.com/lordfly
|
Merwan Marker
Booring...
Join date: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,706
|
05-08-2005 13:05
From: Schwanson Schlegel How is having an auction tool to sell land going to provide economic stability for SL ? Not sure it will Schwan - just saying it help level the playing field and provide the same ability to offer land as LL uses when releasing new land by enpowering each resident to auction and sell by owner. Sorry LF, didn't mean to hijack this thread. _/_/
_____________________
Don't Worry, Be Happy - Meher Baba
|
Traxx Hathor
Architect
Join date: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 422
|
05-08-2005 19:16
You've got a good point, Merwan. I'd like to see more economic tools in the hands of individuals.
LF, I'll IM you in-game with the answers to your questions.
|
Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
|
05-08-2005 20:48
From: someone LF, I'll IM you in-game with the answers to your questions. Like I said, architects won't reveal their rates to the public, creating a climate of secrecy and exclusivity. Make sure the Masonic secret society keeps its secrets ROFL.
_____________________
Rent stalls and walls for $25-$50/week 25-50 prims from Ravenglass Rentals, the mall alternative.
|
Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
|
05-08-2005 20:48
From: someone My prefabs range from $L750 - 950 and custom ranges from $L10k -65k. Prefabs are too low priced, customs are too high at the high end, seems to me.
_____________________
Rent stalls and walls for $25-$50/week 25-50 prims from Ravenglass Rentals, the mall alternative.
|
Juro Kothari
Like a dog on a bone
Join date: 4 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,418
|
05-08-2005 21:32
From: Prokofy Neva Like I said, architects won't reveal their rates to the public, creating a climate of secrecy and exclusivity. Make sure the Masonic secret society keeps its secrets ROFL. Did ya miss my post? I posted my rates, publicly for all to see - so, please don't apply a blanket comment like that. Thank you.
|
Juro Kothari
Like a dog on a bone
Join date: 4 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,418
|
05-08-2005 21:40
From: Prokofy Neva Prefabs are too low priced, customs are too high at the high end, seems to me. My rates were set after doing some research on the competition. I feel fine with where the pricing model is and I'm sure most of my customers feel it's a fair price. Some might even say it's a bargain.  As for my customs - they are priced with several factors in mind. When I create a custom, the new owner is guaranteed exclusivity. I will NEVER sell a custom as a prefab. You will never find a copy of your custom home inworld, unless you decide to sell copies yourself (my customs are set to full open perms, so this is a possibility). I also create custom textures, where needed, for the new homeowner. I also spend many, many hours on each custom, which is part of the reason for my backlog of custom projects. I am fine with where the costs of my custom builds are and I suspect my customers are too.
|
Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
|
05-09-2005 06:28
From: someone You will never find a copy of your custom home inworld Juro, an architect can set whatever damn price he wants to, and its his business. He doesn't have to tell anybody. And he doesn't have to justify what he does. He is welcome to keep the "profession" of SL architect as Masonic and secretive as it sometimes is in the real world. Then people are going to draw their own conclusions: that architects are arrogant, smug, secretive, condescending, exclusive, and acting out some little Ayn Rand fantasy. If someone thinks that such secretiveness is actually "discretion" and due to their "client's privacy" and their appropriately "not discussing their client's business" as "professional" well, I tend to roll my eyes, given that it's a game, and we're talking about the chill pads and clubs of mafia kings and domme queens. A person should have the right to hire an architect and not have to tell anybody about the cost. It's their business. But Lordfly, strangely, is coming on a public forum, and asking the questions about the "market rates" and the "going rates". He's not asking anybody to disclose this or that client's private business, but just to make a generic comment -- one that some find simply unbearable even in that form. In the real world, on public buildings in particular, that also have some pretentiousness of public space or public use provided, it is common for the bids to become a known fact in the town council or the media. I've called for builders and construction companies to be more open and consistent about their rates. I think it will not only help them adjust their prices up to get the value they need to for their hard work, it will help consumers feel less angry and defrauded and manipulated. Indeed, it would be a good thing if more services like this had more public schedules of rates. Architects pride themselvs on not being builders, but they'd be well served to publicize at least the generic range of their rates as Juro has. Ah, well... In RL, even doctors have to provide information about their fees because of third-party insurance. Even lawyers have to make known some kind of schedule of billable hour rates. Architects in SL at the high end view themselves as an exclusive, secret society that "runs SL". I'm for taking a closer look at that claim LOL. Many architects are not that scrupulous. I don't mind it, however, as I am usually happy to have subsidized their work in making SL a more beautiful place, and I'm also happy to help launch them on resale of textures they may have designed for the job which they can sell and help support themselves in the game It seems to me this is a great thing for business all around. It does get annoying when I start to see copies all over, however; I'm quite entitled to pay even more, though, to get an exclusive copy.
_____________________
Rent stalls and walls for $25-$50/week 25-50 prims from Ravenglass Rentals, the mall alternative.
|
Ingrid Ingersoll
Archived
Join date: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,601
|
05-09-2005 07:12
Frankly, I can see why custom builds cost so much. They take alot of time and you don't get a chance to ever sell what you make again. And sometimes they take ages to complete. It's not something I'd want to do because of the time commitment required to do a decent job. Prefabs should be much cheaper because you can sell them many times over, and generally don't take as long to build as a custom place. I'd love to cut a deal with the IT guy so he'd overlook the fact that I have SL downloaded at work so that i could build virtual houses from here.  9 hours! I'd be so productive in my Second Life!  Edit to add: my prefabs are 200L as are Barnesworth's. I'm not sure how we came up with that number, it probably doesn't make much sense.
|
Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
|
05-09-2005 08:46
From: someone Edit to add: my prefabs are 200L as are Barnesworth's. I'm not sure how we came up with that number, it probably doesn't make much sense. Your prefabs are among the cheapest, and yet your quality is so far above what the other cheapies are, that you might consider even doubling your prices -- you still won't be up in the $1500 range. BUT I should note that you and Barnes generally only supply one copy, i.e. the original, without the "back-up copies" that many architects supply to customers. Many of these architects charging $1500-$4000 in fact supply back-up/multiple copies inside their package, and that can be very helpful. They also have things like doors on "mod" so you can make them lockable. I know you don't put your houses on "copy" so that people won't put out bunches of your houses to rent all in one place. You find that tacky and exploitative. I understand. I find it silly to put out identical houses all in one place, too, because I know they normally don't rent -- people want diversity and selection and a more realistic look to rentals than cookie-cutter stamp-outs. So I'm happy to pay per copy, but keep in mind, then, that Juro or Tyra or Azrael or somebody else might charge $1500, then put in the function to make back-up copies. They do this to avoid all that customer-service request of people who mess up houses as they put them out, or push them off world, or delink them or whatever. Should a landlord take advantage of the fact that an architect has put in back-up copies to the original sold, and put them out to rent in multiple copies? This is a grey area. On the one hand, those that don't want this practice done, like yourselves, have taken care not to put in any other back-up copies. And some architects I've contacted don't seem to care, once they've pocketed the $1500 because they see they get more sales from people who rent, then go on to buy that same house themselves when they go and buy their own land -- a common practice I've seen. They understand that the display of their house out in a rentals is good in general for their business and gets more sales all around. Policing the extra copy they might see put out isn't worth the hassle -- although I imagine given the climate in SL, there are some that get very hysterical on this point -- in which case I can only advise them to put in the singular copy and eat the customer service hours in backups, or else create wholesalers' packages at bulk discount. I generally try to just have one copy rented, and the other that are out are for display purposes. I think it's good to support architects. Since I give them a lot of business, however, I expect them to figure out whether they want "no copy" or "copy" and not fuss about how it is used. I often have a tenant buy a house themselves, so they can then modify it. After all, I'm renting out land that costs many thousands more up front and in tier, than their house of $500 or $1500.
_____________________
Rent stalls and walls for $25-$50/week 25-50 prims from Ravenglass Rentals, the mall alternative.
|
Juro Kothari
Like a dog on a bone
Join date: 4 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,418
|
05-09-2005 09:52
From: Prokofy Neva Architects in SL at the high end view themselves as an exclusive, secret society that "runs SL". I'm for taking a closer look at that claim LOL.
Eh, I don't think any architect is foolish enough to think they 'run' SL. We all know who runs SL, and it's not a prim crafter. As for transparency on the pricing of custom builds, I have to say that I will never divulge a price for a specific project. Many clients are uncomfortable dispensing that kind of information and frankly, it's not my place to tell you all how much so-and-so's house cost. If they want to share the price, have at it, but all you'll ever get from me is a general pricing range.
|
Ingrid Ingersoll
Archived
Join date: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,601
|
05-09-2005 10:41
From: Prokofy Neva BUT I should note that you and Barnes generally only supply one copy, i.e. the original, without the "back-up copies" that many architects supply to customers.
hmm.. i did not know this.
|
Sam Portocarrero
Jesus Of Suburbia
Join date: 23 May 2004
Posts: 316
|
05-09-2005 16:32
I've found this thread interesting so far.. Not because anyone can go to my shop and look at our prices them selves, why not post them here ROFL. Our prefabs start at $75 (Airstream Land Yacht) and go all the way up to $1300 (New Mexico) they are FULLY customizable (no shared walls or floors) and come completely copy/mod. Though I will admit our homes are higher prim then most of the competition. We do all types of custom building, anything from homes to commercial. My rates depend on the project but generally cost between $2000 and $45,000. I will be posting my newest custom build in the "Gallery" section of this forum so you can see what you can expect for the buck. (from us anyway lol) I also will say that my company will be going through ALOT of changes in the coming months and these prices will adjust (though not too much). We sell our homes "Copy/Mod" because like any human, the factory default isn’t always your favorite. Also if/when you do make a mistake remodeling or modifying you can easily pull out a new copy, and try again. (I often recommend our cheaper homes to "learn" on for newbies.) Oh btw, I believe a home should come with the basics (Doors for starters). There...Most of my secrets  - Sam
|
Lordfly Digeridoo
Prim Orchestrator
Join date: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 3,628
|
05-09-2005 22:54
Might as well contribute to my own thread...
My prefabs are all for sale at $L500, and are full copy/mod, but no transfer. They range between 110-160 prims.
My custom jobs are on a variable scale... Depending on the job (home, shop, or club/casino/mall), I charge $L1000, $L2000, and $L4000, respectively. On top of that, I also charge $L10 per prim used (an old throwback from the pre-1.2 days, when each prim cost $L10 to rez).. seems to work out okay. Although with some of the prices quoted, I'm wondering if I'm selling myself short here. Hmm.
LF
_____________________
---- http://www.lordfly.com/ http://www.twitter.com/lordfly http://www.plurk.com/lordfly
|