SL Corporations

http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=49714quote: David Linden: Actually, I believe that SL is not a game at all.

Stoneself, David Linden is the new marketing dude, and obviously it is a marketing tactic to try to position the SL thingie as "not a game". The truly sophisticated are supposed to get into harness now and say it's "not a game".

In fact as I learned tonight from hanging around Ambleside with Lindens and FIC, the expression you have to say is "I've been using SL for X months".

Like you might say "I've been using drugs for a year but I quit."

You don't say "I play SL." You're supposed to say "I use" SL.

If you are still laying "I play SL" you are *so* 90s, you are SO out of it, hopeless, hopeless.

It's like all those bus ads for Citibank that try to make it sound like it's not a bank collecting interest off your deposit but is some kind of fun zen retreat that helps you get i touch with all your innermost values. "It's not about spending," etc. Yeah, of course life is not about spending money because Citibank wants to keep your money and not have you spend it LOL.

Really -- it's like Pet Rock. Such a brilliant branding campaign.

Sorry, Joe, on second thought, I'm dropping this line of discussion. There are projects in development in SL that most definitely are not games . . . which is exactly why I've decided it would be a bad idea to drag discussion of them into a forum debate.

Amazing but true, Prok, only one group submitted their proposal, and Neualtenburg was it. They did a good job, too, whether or not you share their aesthetic taste. They built what they said they'd build, it was quality work, it was a landmark with a lot of interesting nooks and crannies to explore, and they hung together and even went on to get their own island sim after the initial experiment was complete. Pretty cool!

Large, organized group projects involving pooled tier are much more common now than they were back then. Those whacky chicken-hatted Bavarians were pioneers. I'm a greedy capitalist running dog who gets inordinate satisfaction out of being the sole queen of my own patch of virtual snowy ground, and I'd probably snap and go on a dual-Seburo rampage through the village if I were forced to particpate in the machinations and minutiae of the Neualtenburg sociopolitical system (I get enough of that irl), but I admire the hell out of that group.

Joe, I read your proposal https://secondlife.com/vote/index.php?get_id=392 and as a SL No0b who was attracted to the game by the very open secondary market potential, I can in some ways say I like the idea. The biggest problem I see with it, after a week in the game, is that there is no established legal system. I've seen people having sex in one of the discount home improvement stores, but I've not seen evidence of government in SL.
Should corporations be entities that exist in game, but are organized IRL? I can see that this would be a hack, but probably one more efficient that what could be executed in game.

Just some thoughts from a no0b.

Leon

It's simple in concept, difficult in execution. If SL is a game, no hard-and-fast rules apply, beyond what makes a game fun. If SL is a marketing tool, which is what RL corporations are using it for, and David Linden was discussing, then one set of hard-and-fast rules apply. If SL is a "world" in which conducting RL business is possible, then another set of hard-and-fast rules apply.

If SL is all of the above and more - as I suspect it might be - then different sets of rules apply to different activities, and the problem is not only "what rules?", but also, "where do they apply?"

No! Barnesworth Annubis already has that dream and is already cornering the market!

Seth, I think you've hit upon a major source of friction in the game -- if it is all those things -- games, worlds, metaverses, marketing devices, training mechanisms, etc. than different rules seem to apply.

What, I'm in a game where I get a $500 stash, like buying a ticket to Atlantic City and I get the bus ride, the free chips for the roulette wheel, and the coupon for the steak dinner?

But...that hurts my RL business approach, which just flooded the market with free cash so that no one has any incentive to work or create value or buy my products. All these socialists with the labour theory of value, but they don't want to work to create the value, they just want the free handouts LOL.

OH, this is supposed to be my business training simulator or my non-profit project space to colllaborate across frontiers? Then why is there a hooker with a Tringo card out on my lawn with glowing bling?

I guess your lawn with glowing bling attracted her. Maybe your organization should invest in an island.

"Bling lawns" represent the single biggest threat to Second Life. I was hoping that no one would stumble across this terrible secret until Linden Lab and the National Security Administration had had the chance to consult further.

You mean that the Комите́т Госуда́рственной Безопа́сности (Komitet Gosudarstvennoy Bezopasnosti) or Committee for State Security, oops, I mean the Department of Homeland Defense (I know, completely different thread on that one) hasn't put an end to the atrocious, misguided and terroristic practice of having a bling lawn? What will the world do?

Seriously though, there are have been some great ideas in this thread and some terribly painful reminders that no matter how much we try and improve the business climate in SL, the communal utopians will always try to throw roadblocks in the way. We need good, strong and revised group tools and we need a seperate system for companies/corporations. That seperate system would allow for, but not require, the ability to have investors either through sale of stock/shares in the company, bonds or prim-facta loans.

Vot immenno tovarischch

Timmy, you're being altogether too reasonable. We'll never get a good flamewar going here if you don't drop that attitude!

Though I feel tha the communal utopians should all go play in their corners of SL and leave the rest of us alone, I am open to compromise. Even the idea of bringing in the feature of companies and giving them the appropriate tools requires compromise within the pro-commercial majority of SL. We don't all agree on the best course, though this thread is giving us great ideas and vision and hopefully the almighty Lindens are reading as well.

Exactly...

Ditto

Uh Oh, An earthquake woke me up, so I guess that is my queue to jump in

The reason I asked that question at the town hall was to try to clarify or deduce what direction this "game" was going to be taken. I brought a friend here with me from that cesspool known as Runescape and he spends a lot of time playing Darklife. Researching Darklife, I noticed the developers wanted to do more, but couldnt because the tools were not robust enough to allow it, and thats where my perspective was asking that question.

My follow up question was not asked due to the unexpected quick end of the meeting or a possible 1 question per person limit, but for the record it was , in essence, a question about what tools would be added to help in-game developers (specifically related to game development) gain more control than an average user to fascilitate large scale projects that would benefit the community as a whole. Group and corperate tools could certainly fall into the scope of my follow up and would and should have been addressed if I was more aware of the landscape when I asked the question.

I own my own business in real life and came here as a form of escape, a fun place to hang out and socialize with like minded beings, a "utopia" if you will ( I would bet when SL gets that surge of new residents that successful marketing will surely bring, most will view SL as I do, NOT in the same way as the Barons or developers or content creators or even apparently the Lindons do, but as a form of recreation or community).

But as a businessman, I do sense profit opportunities, and at some point will try my hand at them.

But I'm still new here. I have to lurk around before I take any real risks (I figure it's wise to learn the nuances of the game, the playing field, the rules, the tools, and the players before I actually jump in and play)

And Prok, Being a tenant of yours I had no idea you were so anti hippie =)

But being a businessman, I understand completely why you would rent out your land (which by your own account is more of an improvised free form experiment then a money maker at this time) to someone setting up a prototype of a "commune" based upon a real life counter culture model. I think most of your common detractors would be suprised that you are, in effect, subsidizing a "commune in the making" with your land.

And I think you might be suprised Prok, at the make up of modern day hippies in my age group. Most are very well educated, and have full time jobs in the proffessional sector. We build our vacations around spending time in our version of a real world utopia. But during the year we are productive, we vote, we pay taxes and many of us actually own our own businesses. A very good friend of mine who chases tornados actually sold his technology to Acu Weather.

There is, however, another segment that lives (or lived when it was truly thriving) in the scene full time and on face value may look to be worthless, and you may be suprised that us hippies have a strong capitalistic inner structure. The full timers finance their lifestyle selling food, beer, t shirts, drugs, grilled cheese, smoking apparatus, bumper stickers, and crafts. There was truly a micro economy that was self governed and not at all dissimilar to SL in nature.

Hippies are big bizness and often have more money then you would expect. I'll never forget the first time I saw the Grateful Dead in Las Vegas, and 90% of the BIG hotels were begging for our Bizness with thier headliner signs and Banners on the FRONT of their hotel reading "Welcome Deadheads" and "Welcome Grateful Dead". The Vons grocery store (where we got our beer) even was in on it, with EVERY employee from the bag boy and checkers to the butchers and produce people wearing tye dyes.

As a matter of fact, at that time when Vegas was marketing themselves as a family destination, there were only 2 times the Casinos uniformly raised their room rates, one was around New Years during the consumer electronic and AVN shows, and the other, you guessed it, when the Dead and their huge counter culture economy came into town =)

Us "tree huggers" aren't against bizness at all, u'd be suprised at the demographic and financial make up of our tribe. We dress down intentionally much of the time, and we are underestimated a great deal, which gives us huge advantages in ways you wouldnt understand if you are wearing a monkey suit or spend half you salary on "bling".

I guess Im gonna have to represent my group when Prok lumps us into anti bizness. Sure my "club" is a labor of love at this time with nothing but my wallet and possible dwell to apparently fund it when my details are worked out, but my gears are turning just like anyone smart enough to smell profit.

And I don't really care what David Lindon says, to me this is and always will be a game, and when it ceases to be fun I will take my leave.

Thats the problem with you "militant capitalists;" in the persuit of money you can NEVER achieve what you want, as the preoccupation with aquisition of cash leads to nothing but the persuit of more money, which is an insatiable lust; you'll never get as much as you want because by the very nature of the chase, you will always want more. This philosophy robs you of your ability to be satisfied, and everything in life can take a back seat to the chasing of the almighty dollar.

Even if you do get the dollar amount you want, when you look back, what price did you pay? Did you get to spend time with your family working those 80 hour weeks? Did you take an hour to visit the Lourve or enjoy a ride on a gondola when that bizness trip took you to Europe? Did you notice your children growing up, or your spouse growing apart from you?

But thats NOT the attitude that I see from you Prok, in-game at least. On the surface and the forums, sure, you are quite voiciferous about business, but in practice you have committed your assets to something that I cant see doing anything but losing you money in support of an experiment.

That makes you much more alike with me and my people then I think you realize or would be willing to admit to.

And back on topic, I voted for the Corperate tools even though I despise most corporations in RL, in the same manner I believe as Thomas Jefferson did, in that corporations remove liability from anyone in particular which lets corperations take very destructive steps and risks that no sole proprieter would dream of trying to pull, as they would personally have to answer for their actions.

As a business set up, I can't argue with the bottom line aspect of corperate structure if the persuit of money is your game, but from my ethical standpoint, allowing someone to duck out of their responsibilities and evade punishment when their business infringes on something or somebody (the Wal Mart effect or Enron fiascos being prime examples), that is nothing more than a form of sanctioned abuse or RL "griefing" and there is no personal accountability built in aside from loss of investments.

Sorry Im rambling, the earthquake woke me up before I was ready to be awake and I have A.D.D. something awful, so forgive my random musings while I agree that if you're gonna support a capitalist system, then the tools need to lend themselves to it.

I hear Proks concern about mutinys in group land and it is quite valid and much more communist than capitalist in nature, so yeah, Lindon needs to fascilitate and protect bizness structure if they want to market themselves as a venue for free commerce. I voted, not because the issue is close to me, as this IS A game, to me at least. I voted because you can't play soccer with a baseball, and I can't watch a game like that, even if only from the sidelines.

Random Unsung is a hippie. Haven't you noticed he has a tie-die shirt and wire-rim glasses and loafers? lol

Prok is more corporate with a tie and storebought hair.

But you're absolutely right, I do subsidize communes. For sure. Along with other types of things, because I'm for creating more opportunities and points of entree into the game.

When I call the group tools "hippie dope-smoking" it's to get people to focus on this awful problem of how they equally distribute resources and also make them stealable by any one party. That's awful.

Hippies are big business nowadays, that's the branding idea spoke of in "Bobos in Paradise". The tiny counterculture thing becomes the branding in the next generation. All you are describing is what people in the 1960s would call "selling out to the man".

Only met Random once in the "flesh," and if I'm not mistaken it was my 1st week in game and it's kind of hard to keep track of details when EVERYTHING is new to you.

Oddly enough, in the parking lot of those Dead shows I witnessed Grateful Dead reps entering the crowd and confiscating unofficial merchandise featuring the bands IP.

I have no problem with bizness, and I don't think many modern hippies do either

Which movie was it where (I believe it was Pacino) said (paraphrased, still really groggy) "if you are 18 and give in to the system you have no spine, if at 30 you don't give in to the system you have no brains?"

I just turned 30 a couple months back

*sigh*

If you are "the man," you have no problem with people selling out to you.

All that being said in its current form, the tools we have to work with to "group" do not allow the structure needed to support the Godless ranks of a corporation (where the good of a few outrank the good of the many).

Not that I intend to incorperate, mind you (can't put that old bong... er... i mean waterpipe down long enough), but hearing about trying to form a company with the group tools supplied is like watching someone eat broth with a fork, so I firmly back any improvement that ends with a lifelike model of big bizness.

Besides, without the corporations, whose fence would I chain myself to in order to protest "the man's" latest evil deeds?

Like ive said before, we can all get along together. You need my fence, and I need your protesting!

Loafers? Whatever, enjoy your roleplay.

I am in Los Angeles for the next couple of days *sigh* and I am already going through SL withdrawals. Maybe I should have Mulch pass that water pipe this way. NOT!





See, this is the type of melding that I like to see. The communal utopian and the pro-commercian (I know, not a word. Bite me!) seeing that they need each other. I think Prok has even pointed this out, in his own wonderful way. (Give 'em hell Prok!) As Mulch said, he needs are businesses to protest against and we business owners need his protests to draw attention to our businesses. As they say, the only bad publicity is no publicity at all.

Joe, Prok and I are not asking for improved group tools and even the creation of corporate tools (though Prok feels that only the group tools needed enhanced) without oversight from the Lindens. If we have full fledged corporations with stocks, bonds and prima facta loans, I want Linden oversight. I want their version of the SEC and even the FTC to make sure we all play by the rules. Sorry, I don't trust SL residents enough to police other residents.

As I have stated before, I think the formation of bonafide companies/corporations is the next logical evolution of SL, instead of just these loosely formed groups that have no recourse when one member of that group acts without honor. I can also see these companies/corporations invigorating the SL economy which, as a business owner, seems a bit stagnant, kind of like the US economy with President George W Bush around.

I welcome reasonable Linden regulation of companies/corporations and I think everyone else would as well.

Yes, Kim, loafers. Perhaps to imply he *is* a loafer and so that he doesn't have to tie his shoes. And yes, I'm quite aware that what hippies wear were Birkenstock sandals but I couldn't find any in SL so I made do. They are um hand-tooled natural-dyed authentic leather loafers only created when the animal died of natural causes after eating only organic feed. And sure, go ahead calling what I do "role play" but what you do with a bug that comes when you call and sits on your shoulder is uh...what you really are in RL. OK, whatever.

If you're going to trade Dead authenticity stories, not only did I see Jerry in Roseland and not only do I have some of those rare Red Rocks tapes in my collection I also have a poster personally signed by 3 generations of Dead drummers. I mean, do not try to outdo me on Dead credentials, please

Timmy, the more I think about it, the more I'm not sure I want to create full-blown corporations that get plunked down in a setting with no judiciary or independent bar, let alone free press.

See, that's always the trouble with SL, like trying to conceive of forms for any third-world socialist nation in transition. What to sequence first? Have the economy freed up, but keep the press muzzled and let the "families" run the economy, like China. Or free up the press but let the "families" grab some of the main pie after bribing officials and feign selling some of the plants off to workers. Or free prices, and gut it out like Poland. Or have some market reforms, but never convert your currency, like Uzbekistan. Each one of these paths of sequencing of reforms leaves you with awfulness every which way. Really, socialism and communism are such horrible things to do to countries and it takes them so long to get fixed.

Given that increasingly I'm seeing here that not only do we have socialism but corporatism (as in fascistic corporatism based on the medieval guild ideologies), I'm not sure I think that it's good that such corporations emerge full-blown out of the box with no judiciary. You're for only putting all this in if we have an FEC. But you want the Lindens to create it. They're not going to do this. See, pretty soon, I'm going to start thinking player government is the worst idea -- except for all the others.

All I want them to do is plug the worst holes in the group tools. They need to stop forcibly circulating revenue equally. This is the hippie utopianism I mean, if "hippie" here means utopian communes. Obviously post-hippies businesses merely using the hippie brand are not hippie communes. Allen Ginsburg would not approve, nor would Ken Kesey let alone Abbie Hoffman.

I would like a judiciary system set up in SL instead of this pansy a** abuse system that has no transperency. Hell, I would welcome the economic force of SL lawyers. (You can't have a lawful society without lawyers, no matter how much some of may despise them.) I would like to have a place in SL where disputes can be worked through, without having to get canned answers and without worrying that you will get screwed because you didn't have an in with the powers that be. I would like for their to be an actual system of laws, even a resident Constitution. You will have to forgive me for only mentioning the FTC and SEC as I said, I am in Los Angeles and it crimps my thinking style. (I really do loathe L.A.)

As far as Birckenstocks go, I think either DrZippy McLean or HoseQueen McLean might know where you can get some.

Oh, I'm going to talk to Hose or Zippy then, great idea.

I quite agree that the wimpie fanboyz informats' system known as the "AR" is highly subjective, misused to knock out critics and competition, and utterly discredited. And to make it worse, you can't explain how this is true, chapter and verse, because of the *additional* restriction on not discussing any disciplinary actions on the forums.

So indeed, one very useful and healthy function that some independent consumer advocates' type of group could get going is a review of how AR's are misused by enemies to put their rivals out of business.



I couldn't agree more! I tried to get a discussion going on this but people aren't mature enough to have that discussion yet without dissolving into stupid fights over whether someone is gay or a gay-basher or not ("Metaverse or Fetaverse".

"All I want them to do is plug the worst holes in the group tools. They need to stop forcibly circulating revenue equally."

That's straightforward and clear, and I agree. It's a shame you waste your time and ours with the inflamatory labels and metaphors.

There was an ad in the New Products section just yesterday for prim Birkenstocks. Course, it's summer, and where I come from us hippies wouldn't be planning on wearing shoes for months, except for hiking boots for special occasions.

As to your mention of Bug, well, he's a puppet. And, yeah, I have a ventriloquist's dummy irl, too.