The "ownership" system of Neualtenburg.

Prok, FYI, I didn't "get a fete" and I'm not a member of the Neualtenberg group. However, I am an admirer of their work and the organization it takes to do it. I'm also glad that members of SL who enjoy experimenting with a political system have a group and a place to do it.

Anyway, perhaps through repetitively sloppy application, you appear to have forgotten the actual definition of fete. I didn't notice the Lindens throwing a bash for this group (although I'd love to see what Ben would come up with in the way of a cake with a tiny Bavarian village on top).

As a recently arrived Neualtenburger I know very little of what went on before. Quite honestly I don't care how it came about. What I see is a beautiful place and a great idea involving the theme of old Bavaria, which has a special place in my heart. I have no intention of running for government but I shall be an informed voter. As most of my time there will be spent building and having a nice time with interesting people though, I shan't complain if the place becomes ruled over by an hereditary monarch. The more pageantry and mystery the better, say I.

How dramatic... nobody is fighting back... you think your fighting back? Against what? A group of people self ruling virtual real estate in which they own?

Let me spell out for you what you are really doing... it's called Trolling.

Sudane posted in the "Land and Economy" forum, the ownership system of Neualtenburg. Certainly a group of people interested in Land and Economy would be interested in hearing the details of such a deed. This wasn't a debate. She didn't say anything inflamatory. There was no claim that all of SL should be doing business this way. It was just a post, explaining how the ownership system works. A few of us then started discussing how the system works.

That's when you jumped in and hijacked the thread, with your Ra-Ra, this is unamerican rhetoric. In doing so your disrupting discourse and scaring away people who have legitimate questions about how it all works.

Your a troll.... or your Sudane's alt, cause you always round up so much interest in the city. Thanks!

LOL Satchmo!

The "fete" applies to the group, not to you, and "To fete" means to celebrate, so I'm afraid you're just chosing only one meaning of the word, just to make a skewed point.

The cute little Bavarian village in the snow *is* the cake, Kim.

Satcho, I love how you call any stringemt debate against socialism -- well deserved -- to be "Trolling". That way, you can set up the one-two punch to get someone AR's and banned, eh? Socialists often attempt to control the free press in this way in my experience.
Doesn't fly with me.

I love it when Sudane posts "the ownership system of Nber" in a themed forum instead of classifieds, in order to get more sales, and promotion of her own brand of ideology, which is a kind of socialism which also seems to make common cause at times with corporativism, and expects to get a free ride, but when I put this type of discussion post in polysci, where it belongs, about my tier donation system, it gets savaged and called a form of "dictatorship" by Nberg leaders like Gwyn. Honestly, can't you see the hypocrisy?
It's ok for Nberg leader Gwyn to join my thread and debate me and call me a "dictator" -- and I support her right to do that -- but if I join your thread and criticize the notorious co-op system of NYC, I'm a "troll"? Huh?

When you put out a model of socialism and advertise for people to join, especially when you use the leverage of the gifted sim and the Lindens' ear that you already have, expect a pushback. You'll get one. It's only fair. Quite a few people don't want to replicate the socialist model.

And it's Nberg from which two really nasty campaigns have been mounted:

o calling for an end to the 10 percent incentive for grouped land, which affects non-profits as well as businesses on the mainland -- merely because Nberg is on an island now and no longer needs the 10 percent itself (craven and self-serving)

o calling for an end to bulk discounts for tier used by land dealers and project leaders -- again, mainly a slam against classes, peoples, and projects viewed as in competiion with the socialist project of Nberg.

These two shrill, ideological campaigns emananting from Nberg deserve a resounding rebuff.

Don't try to hide behind the fact that "this is only Ulrika doing this" because in your socialist collective, you'll all responsible -- and none of the other denizens of Nberg have ever disassociated themselves from these two campaigns because you secretly approve of them in your quest to overthrow capitalism.

Sudane, think for 2 minutes about having to pay more tier in Moraine, and see if you can't disassociate yourself from Ulrika.

All I can say is, if you wish to overthrow capitalism, go buy your own damn servers, and see if you can get anybody to show up to play on them, don't invade these servers to overthrow the terms, given that people would like to go on renting at the terms that the Lindens, who so far haven't utterly caved to the communization, still chose to offer.

It isn't clear whether this paragraph is aimed at each member of Neualtenburg. If it is then here is a reply for myself. I'm not aware of the campaigns you mention but shall read up on them. It would be rather silly to include me in the 'quest to overthrow capitalism' given what I have said further back in this thread. A socialist collective? How interesting. Never tried one of those.

There is room to test all kinds of social experiments in SL. Although this particular model may not appeal to me, personally, I see nothing "appalling" about it.

Garnet, what happened before in the thread about "Is LL exploiting us" was that Ulrika campaign on this issue, others in Nberg remained silent, and claimed "well, that's just one opinion".

Indeed, Nberg is now merely called a "democracy" or "democratic" when everyone knows it is SOCIAL democracy. The role of Ulrika, an avowed hardline socialist, is visible, vocal, pervasive.

Yes, by all means, read up on these campaigns, start by googling your friend Ulrika on these forums.

Thanks for posting about this topic.

It is interesting to read a point of view that is not necessarily in favour of the project per se, but still thoughtful, civil, and accepting of the basic right of people to do whatever the hell they want on their own land.

This freedom, of a group of people deciding how they want to live on their own land, is such an American identified concept, I cant see how any self-identified "True American" could disagree with it.

I think you are possibly correct about other "simpler" systems of co-operative land use in SL but in my experience the lack of clearly defined rules is always a "gotcha" in the end. IMO such systems function fine as a sort of "group of friends," corporation for a while, but interpersonal differences or perhaps just the passing of time, usually contribute to them falling apart before too much time has passed.

As you describe, these groups exist mostly for the single purpose of controlling the sim land. Since they exist only as a kind of "lazy capitalism" they typically lack any kind of social element beyond the fact that the group of friends generally "agrees on things." They first day they no longer agree, the group generally falls apart IMO.

My understading of Neuwaltenberg is that it is a very similar situation to that you describe (and seem to enjoy), but formalised and structured so as to be more seperate from the whims of any individual members.

The other big difference, and the part you are perhaps not considering, is the social side of things.

I am not a member, so i cannot really comment on the purposes of the group, but I see Nberg as essentially a rules-based community, (emphasis on community), quite literally a "civiliised" area. It is the opportunity to have a little control over the social environment, that is the issue here. The bit of extra structure in the model is there primarily to accomodate that aspect.

I think.

Disagreeing with Tailgunner Prok is prima facia evidence of being a bolshevik, dontcha know?

And being a bolshevik is worse than being a baby-eating demon worshipper, because you could probably turn a profit off baby-eating demon worshippers.

And here I thought the John Birch Society was dead and buried. Take that, you Bavarian commies!

I mean, dosvadanya comrades! Pardon my spelling, my KGB handlers were clumsy with the language lessons.

I'm Garnet not Red.

I liked that so much, I'm gonna change the heading under my avatar to "Bavarian Commie". Thanks!!!

Bullcrap. I'm in the Neualt project and I do not support either of those suggestions. Just because individuals from within a group express their individual opinions on various issues, DOES NOT mean they are speaking for an entire group. But then we have had this conversation before. Let me quote what I told you then when you first started to spout this crap and stating that a person from our group should not be allowed. I posted the following on 12-09-2004, 04:52 PM



The page to find where I originally stated this is here:
/120/43/29427/4.html

I am also NOT a Socialist, and I am a huge supporter of capitalism. You have *never* understood how Neualtenburg works, and you never will because you don't honestly want to. You just want to spew crap and hope someone pays attention to your trash.

I think it's really suspect for members of a group that is a self-avowed, tight-knit, cooperative group, to allow one or two members to go out there way in front to attack other groups in the game -- those who are landowners, getting the advantage of the 10 percent tier bonus (which Nberg itself only five minutes ago made use of)! and slamming the bulk discount for higher levels of tier (which is shameful given that Nberg got a free sim).

Shameful. And to be exposed. And to be opposed.

It's that use of Nberg as a bastion of cover to launch attacks on other players that I resist, resist, resist and will go on resisting. It's wrong to do that.

I don't oppose the right of people to have their own little experiments on their own land, Dianne. That's silly. That's not what this is about, and their efforts to distract from their own misdeeds is just that -- a distraction!

I've never said anything like that and all this ranting about how I'm in the John Birch society, something I loath and oppose for their hatred of Jews and Catholics and anyone they don't agree with, is just libel and defamation. You don't know me.

Again, I oppose the presentation of Nberg's sales pitches as "discussions" -- they belong in the classifieds. I oppose the use of the subsidized sim as a launching pad to lob attacks on other groups of players -- landowners, tier donor, rental grous, even non-profit project groups using the 10 percent bonus.

Jauani Wu is claiming they make a "perverted" use of socialism. Bleh.

What I keep seeing is that all the other people in this group, which is very tightly knit and cohesive, have not disassociated themselves from these aggessive and vicious campaigns.

They often seem to be unaware of the image they portray when they leave Ulrika and Jauani stalking after others on the forums. Then they can have "plausible deniability".

I'm here not to let you get away with your "plausible deniability".

You let Ulrika and Jauani do the dirty work for you. I find that despicable. Either you agree with them and take the consequences. Or you take a position that disassociates yourselves from their personal, nasty, vicious attacks on other kinds of groups and land ownership in this game, or you will be lumped together with them.

If you think my ordinary call to be ACCOUNTABLE and RESPONSIBLE is "McCarthyism," then take a look at THEIR smear tactics -- calling me a "pyramid schemer," a "dictator" and even scammer of newbies and a "tier skimmer". Shame on them. Honestly, you just don't see yourselves.

*Checks watch to see how long it will be before Cristiano shows up to defene 'my friend Pendari even though I'm not a socialist' and other wagons-circlers.*

Perhaps I would take you more seriously if you didn't have an advertiserment as a signature quote. Each and every one of your posts belongs in classifieds.

That is a flat out LIE. I posted the link to that thread above, and there were *MANY* from Neualt that spoke up in that thread. Anyone can read it and see that for themselves.

Um, Kendra it is ALLOWED to put an ad in a siggy. Everyone does it. No Linden has ever stop it. Before he had his dumb siggy about pimping, your pal Jauani had "buy my land rent my land pass me the meds" as a siggie.

PULEEEZE.

Look at your friend Pendari, geez:




Pendari, the key leaders of Nberg did remain silent in the name of closing ranks and showing "social solidarity" and you know it.

Fine. Resist all you want. Since this is not happening, you can just continue to resist fluff and bull all you want.

But THEY aren't being hypocritical --YOU are.

Prok, do you ever do anything with your time besides try and tear down and discredit the hard work of others? Overcompensating for something?

Yes, I'm aware that it's always the case that one's fellow group members are above reproach, especially if they are socialists, whereas everyone else is evil

Oops, guessed the wrong Midnight. Damn, and I had a bet going!

I work very hard on all my rentals groups and projects and events in world, throughout the night and day, interspersing it with my RL jobs and commitments.

I criticize projects that try to undermine me, and the game as a whole.

Umm. No. Ulrika, Kendra, Talen, and myself *all* spoke up in that thread. So again, you are wrong.

Name me one project that is actually doing this? I haven't seen one yet.

I do know a lot of individual people that would be happy if you were not around. But that isn't because of what work you do in SL, it is because of you personaly.