The economy is broken...

Oh yes I do.

1. This is a doube edged sword as well, but as o fright now SL's edge is VERY weak,but the goernemts of the Us (mostly) and to a somewhat lesser extent britain, could easilycrush sl economically by attaking linden labs. if LL becomes a BIG enough player to detemine fincial policy in severla contries, it MAY be able to wage and win an economic war to the effet of getting L$ recognized. however in oder to do that they wil also win Country status for SL. Which means they can buy and sell gold in quantity to back thier money. (Even NOW countries still pay each other in gold. )

2. The US governemnt coud simply order SL deleted. Woldn't take but one CIA/FBI hacker to do it.


as for Euros,No there in't ONE country backing them, there's SEVERAL. they've given up thier cureinces to make the Euro.

theres several ways to wage a war for recognization, but right now it ain't happening.

however the first step would be for LL to buy GOM or vice versa.......

What if prims were the reward and not L cash? How many griefers and abuse cases are simply driven by boredom? Why shouldn't prims be awarded for good behavior, and taken away for bad behavior - including sandbox privileges?

The whole economy, including poorly designed incentive systems like the present reputation system, doesn't work because its not based on the single scarcest resource: prims. Linden cash is virtually unlimited in supply, so a stipend or a stipend based on behavior doesn't really matter if its not fixed to an absolute value in the scarcest critical resource. To make a poor metaphor - its not the depth of the ocean that matters, its the amount of air on the surface where the boats float that does.

Land is a poor proxy for prims since the number of prims is fixed per land increment. An unlimited supply of cash doesn't work since there are no scale economies to owning land/prims. Therefore any incentive system is flawed, including the reputation system.

What most people seem to be talking about is a dispute resolution or legal framework - not an incentive system. Since there are no political entities in SL we presently confer those duties on the Lindens, but I'm not so sure they ever intended to perform these. They may be waiting to see what kind of political systems emerge, or should we all simply elect Anshe to represent us and provide those services?

Other thoughts? Come on, I'm listening....

So, lets say I walk up to Coca Cola and I start saying.. hmmmmm.. .I'm tired of being able to drink your coke, but not being able to drive to the movies. I need to get to the movies anyways... why can't you make your coke turn into a car while I drink? Or just give me a car along with the drink... and, oh! Don't charge me extra for it!

Linden Labs is not delivering EXPERIENCES. It's NOT A GAME. It's NOT A JOB. It's just a LIFE. Imagine you are born into the world. You've got nothing. You just wander and blend into the community and develop relationships and hold activities and maybe even build a buisness.

Some people don't like that. That's OK. For them, there's TSO, and a whole other range of MMROPGS out there just begging to give them experiences.

Of course companies have to change and adapt to customers needs, but one thing is an adaptation, and another thing is loosing sight of your vision.

Let me tell you what happened to Coca Cola once (back on them).

Some time ago, during the cola wars, they were trying to find out what is it exactly the people like in a drink. So they invested millions in Marketing research to achieve this, modifying different attributes of the flavors and making the general public try it out.
They had achieved their goal. They found a flavor almost 100% of the testing general public loved. People would lighten up their faces and say "Can I have more!"
Then they maid a mistake. A BIG mistake.
They changed their cola flavor for that new UBER flavor.
It was a disaster. Sales plunged. People didn't like it! OMG! WTF? Wasn't this what people Seemed to like and want? What's wrong?
People were ok with that new flavor... they just didn't like the idea of replacing the coke with it.
Results?
Remeber the campaign "Coca Cola Classic"? Back to the original. Since then, they've introduced modifications to the Classic, and variants, but the CORE is the same.. that's what the people want.
People whant a vision... and for companies to stick with it.

Let me say whatisiadBEFORE about this. Its not a "life" as yousay because you are NOT birth ascribed any thing. "life" deons't let you customize your body, life deosn't start every one equal.

as I siad ebfore if they wanted it liek life, the'yd give you an avatar, assigh you parents, give you a cerain amount of l,ect, and fix it all, and dump you into the sim. They could do that, and it would be liek thematrix. That's not we have here, which is like a message board on crack. youdont' ahve to work in Sl, you can wander around Dirt poor and stil have nice clothes and your freedon, that's SO no like life, life would balk at that prospect.

Its a game, maybe the most sohisticated game in existence, but it lacks the total unfiarness of life, and is a escapistic proposition, which is the defining characteristic of a game.

So in short, rant all you want aboutit not being a game, I can't see it an anyhting else but a very unique and intersting game, since it deons't reaplace or make a a reasoble clone of life.

Let me say whatisiadBEFORE about this. Its not a "life" as yousay because you are NOT birth ascribed any thing. "life" deons't let you customize your body, life deosn't start every one equal.

as I siad ebfore if they wanted it liek life, the'yd give you an avatar, assigh you parents, give you a cerain amount of l,ect, and fix it all, and dump you into the sim. They could do that, and it would be liek thematrix. That's not we have here, which is like a message board on crack. youdont' ahve to work in Sl, you can wander around Dirt poor and stil have nice clothes and your freedon, that's SO no like life, life would balk at that prospect.

Its a game, maybe the most sohisticated game in existence, but it lacks the total unfiarness of life, and is a escapistic proposition, which is the defining characteristic of a game.

So in short, rant all you want aboutit not being a game, I can't see it an anyhting else but a very unique and intersting game, since it deons't reaplace or make a a reasoble clone of life.

None of the examples you express make it less of a life than it makes it more of one. The whole concept of SL is built on you being there and doing whatever you want to do in it. LL's deliverable is the tools for you to do just that.
Now, it's one thing if you WISH it where a game and are REQUESTING LL to make it a game. But it's a whole different thing saying that LL is doing a bad job at making the game... when they've never promised a game at all.
And I know the word "game" has popped up once or twice... but it's the same reason some Athiests say "god bless you" when someone sneezes: They're just used to it.

What is second life?

http://secondlife.com/whatis/

Nowhere does LL ever say "Second Life is a Game".

If you think that the above linked page describes a "game", then that's about what you think the word "game" means, not what Second Life is.

Buster

We have several stipulations that SL is not a game, and even some that it is instead a service. Yes, Linden Labs has its own answers to the game question, which may remind some of us of the old chestnut: "What I tell you three times is true."

Second Life's terms of use specifically state that Linden Labs does not guarantee a level of service. Even in my brief time on SL, I can already see why they make this explicit...

So, what is it?

Is it a game? There are resources we can use to discover what meanings people generally ascribe to the word "game". Answers.com gives us several definitions:

An activity providing entertainment or amusement; a pastime: party games; word games. [I suspect most people who are on SL are seeking entertainment or amusement. It is inevitably a pastime -- one passes time there].

A competitive activity or sport in which players contend with each other according to a set of rules: the game of basketball; the game of gin rummy. [Competitive gaming is a significant aspect of SL].

A single instance of such an activity. [SL encompasses many single instance of such activities].

An organized athletic program or contest: track-and-field games; took part in the winter games. [Look at the Events listings - there are many contests, some of which are even 'athletic'].

The equipment needed for playing certain games: packed the children's games in the car. [Even if we decided SL is a developer platform, it would be hard to dismiss the notion that it is a developer platform geared to games, and therefore constitutes the equipment needed for playing certain games. Doesn't Linden Labs organize game developer conferences or other events?]

Informal:
An active interest or pursuit, especially one involving competitive engagement or adherence to rules: “the way the system operates, the access game, the turf game, the image game” (Hedrick Smith). [Second Life has a such a system of rules. There is no virtual world without rules. Physics, for example.]

A business or occupation; a line: the insurance game. [see Anshe Chung.]

Mathematics: A model of a competitive situation that identifies interested parties and stipulates rules governing all aspects of the competition, used in game theory to determine the optimal course of action for an interested party. [insert virtual economy here].

We all seem to speak of "playing" Second Life, even those who support the notion that it is somehow not a game, or that it is somehow more than a game.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

A game is not necessarily something trivial, or that something being a game necessarily precludes profound social, intellectual, or emotional content. Glass bead games, Nomic, roleplaying games, logic games, sports, even familiar games of chance all have social, intellectual, and emotional potentials, undiminished by the fact that they are games.

Second Life is not all that different from things which have come before. It abuses more computing and network resources than, well, almost anything, but there are plenty of virtual communities with virtual economies that people subscribe to. Second Life does try to be more open-ended than most, and in large part succeeds at that. If you redefine the word "game" to some personal definition, I don't know, say... turnips... then Second Life is definitely not a turnip! =) If we're going to be that radical, communication will become exceedingly difficult.

If we adhere to lexical conventions, then what we have here is a game, folks. And again, this does not in any way trivialize anyone's SL experience, or deny the fact that people conduct business in SL, or detract from the fact that SL can be a vehicle for educational content, or whatever your particular purpose for being here happens to be.

Ok. You convinced me. It's a game. And the economy is broken. And SL will sink. And the sky is falling. And we will all die. For ever.

By your defination, everything is a game. Life is a game (no, I don't mean the game Life), the Internet is a game, and all of nature is a game too. SL is not a game, but a platform. Some will view it as a game, because that is the closest thing that they can see it being. It biggest reason I see it not being a game is there is no goal, unless you set if for yourself. That is just how I view it.

Thanks! Let's do the word abundance next. Like, what does it really mean to have an abundance of something. Somebody help us out here and write an essay about that word. Or maybe just provide an example.

Wow!
I have SO much to say on this topic, and fear one HUGE post covering
everything wont get as much attention as a few smaller more directed
posts, so let me start with this one...

Eggy Lippmann suggested taking out the $L and making $USD to official
in-world currency, and Zeta replied..



I feel this is totally inacurate because if I have $100,000 in Linden money
I can "cash out".... selling it on GOM or something and convert that to $400 USD.
So, if I were to gamble that same amount on Slingo, and lose it, then I
just lost the ability to have $400 USD... there IS a real world financial risk
associated with losing $L. Just because some people don't know this or
take advantage of it doesn't make it any less real. Of course, it sounds like
you see "playing SL" just like mining gold... you are here mining gold all day.
You dig up what could be worth $400 in gold, but you decide to give it away.
No, you technically have not "lost" anything because you did not spend money
on anything, but you did lose the opportunity to realise the value.




I think you're on to something here, although I hate to say it.
The fact is, that people are creating items here in-world and selling them.
People are buying/renting land... and people are converting that $L profit
in to real $USD. I'm sure none of this is being reported now, but when
the government finds out about it more, then they will surely want their cut!

The only reason it's not happening now is because this is still the wild west,
and the government is slow to catch on.

Besides that..... just because people do not pay or report taxes, or file
valid buiness papers doesn't mean they are not making a real profit.
You can't use those facts as proof that Linden dollars do not have US dollar
value. The REAL proof of that is to find out if people can convert $L to $USD.
If that is possible then $L DOES indeed have just as much valid $USD value
as other world currency such as the Yen, Euro, etc... which can all be
converted to $USD as well.

Why do I care if I make my profits in Euro, Yen, USD, or Linden? I can convert
to and from each currency just as easily as any other.





Zeta, I really don't mean to pick on you here, but your comments in this post
are just not accurate and very narrow minded.

I suppose it depends on what your definition of a game is... what about "playing
the stock market" ? "playing poker" ? Some people call "love" and "relationships"
a game. Some people say real life is "a game". In that respect I'm sure you
could anything a game, but for all those things are also very real... just because
people interact with avatars via computers and internet does not make "life"
here any less real. People get involved in relationships, platonic or not. People
are making money and even paying First Life bills with their Second Life income.

It's silly to say that because I can "fly" in Second Life and appear as an animated
avatar that THAT is the reason it's a game. What will you be saying about First
Life, if in 50 years we each have personal jetpacks instead of cars for our
transportation, and we've advanced so far in genetics, that people are able to
transform their apperance in to most anything, just as easily as people get
tatoos and piercings today?

Second Life is (or can be) as real as First Life to many people, although
you might not have an open mind for what I see as reality. I don't mean
this TOO harshly.... many hundred years ago the entire world population
thought the earth was flat. I'm sure those that see Second Life (and the
other Virtual Worlds that WILL come) as a game, may soon decide to
change their opinion.


Gabrielle

Zeta has made a few interesting posts today which I just
cant resist I promise to pick on other people too....
equally "silly" comments will get my same attention. heehee




How can you say this?

1) In First Life I come in to the world one "day one" just like I come in to Second Life on "day one".

2) In First Life I do start with certain things "given" to me... hair, arms, blue eyes.
The same as Second Life... although in Second Life I start with features given to
me by my First Life creativity.

3) First Life DOES let me customize my body as does Second Life when I go get
breast implants, artificial limbs (after an accident), plastic surgery, reconstructive
surgery.... even tattoos and piercings in First Life are me working to customize
my body.

4) First Life does start most everyone out fairly equal. Most are born within
a very narrow weight/length range, not much if any muscle control, no sense
of language, no real concept of past or future... only present. Even though a
child might be born in to a weathy family, the child itself does not pop out
with varying amount of cash attached to it. I'd say that if you collected 1000
new born babies from all over the world and all levels of society and threw
them all together in a big playpen, you would see they are (for the most) equal.




So... uh.... how is this different than First Life? The only thing I see you mention
here that is different is the bit about assigning parents. Certainly you can't be saying
that First Life is not a game and Second Life is a game because in First Life I have
parents? What about test tube babies? Do they have "parents" ? What about
a baby born and the next day both parents die. How is THAT any different than
Second Life? OH! You say because in First Life a baby cannot survive on it's own
with adults... and those adults can teach values.. and the way to live. Well, okay.
Our Second Life counterparts get the advantage of starting off with our First Life
intelligence, so we instantly immerge in the world knowing "something". I'm not
sure how that in itself makes First Life any more or less of a game? By the way...
when I started Second Life, I was offered the opportunity to select a Mentor who
would help me out... teach me the ropes.. and get me started in Second Life..
isn't this what a "parent" really does? -- again... I see no major difference.




Where do you live? How old are you? I don't really want an answer, but I
HAVE to wonder what kind of First Life exposure you really have??!!
Don't they have homeless people where you live? Those people wander around
dirt poor and some have nice clothes (given to them by generous people) and
they have their freedom. I do NOT see First Life balking at that prospect!
I see people living their lives as they choose in both First and Second Life. How
does this make either more or less of a "game" than the other?




So... anything that is fair and that you're able to escape from is a game to you?
Is religion a game? I think if most people took a look at their religion they would
think it's pretty fair. Is Tic-Tac-Toe fair? -- If it's fair does that make it not a game?
Is my job or your job in First Life a game? Can you escape it? .. if you say "no"
then let me point out that you CAN escape it! ... it just means you will either need
a different source of income to maintain your lifestyle, or you need to accept living
at a lower social level.

I don't see how we can say something is a game or not a game based on if
it's fair or escapable. I can point out dozens and dozens of other examples
if these few have not opened your eyes.

But... you're welcome to continue to call it a "game" as I might call First Life a game.

Gabrielle

OKAY! I finally made my way through reading this entire thread!

I'd like to comment on a few other things I read along the way.


=-=-=-=-=-= Second Life is not a game (to me) =-=-=-=-=-=

I think you can tell from my previous posts that I do not view
SL as a game, but an extention of "real life" .. just as you might
view the stock market.. it's just another area for some to play
or work... for some to goof off... or make money.

I really don't care if someone else calls SL a game.... perhaps
they get in-world only to play, socialize, have fun, relax, etc.
If they call that a game, it's fine... I'll do the same things in
First Life and call it a game too.

Infact, it even works to my advantage that these people
call it a game! They become buyers for items I sell. I make
the virtual sword, gun, clothes, skin, etc that they "play" with.
They enjoy a "game" .. and I make a real salary...
We both win! And THAT is the type of business I strive for.



=-=-=-=-=-=-= IS the economy really broken? =-=-=-=-=-=

Daemon Shang started out this thread as "The Economy is broken".

We seem to have gotten off on a tangent where we are arguing over
if SL is a game or not. I don't really think that matters. The fact is,
there is some form of economics here in SL, and with sites like GOM
and IGE, the SL economy is tied directly to First Life economy. Whether
you want to admit it or not.... with the help of these sites, the Linden dollar
holds value in just the same way as the Euro, Yen, US dollar, etc.
It's not actually BECAUSE of these sites, but these sites help us easily
convert the currency.. rather than through black market trading on Ebay,
for example.

So, back to the question... IS the economy broken?
For my 2nd-4th week here in SL I've felt the economy was "broken", but
for different reasons than given here, and I'll make a new thread
for that soon... however Jake Reitveld said "No, the economy isn't broken,
it's just impossible to compare it to real life".... which is very profound,
and got me thinking about what actually determines if an economy is
broken or not?!

Does anyone here have a few examples of what makes an economy "broken" ?
What determines a viable economy?

Gabrielle