Sales and Property Tax

How would you feel about a sales tax that is automatically applied to land and object sales in SL? How do you feel about a property tax? It could be used to support user stipends and expanded Linden-directed projects.

~Ulrika~

Well; given the way the economy works; it sort of already is.

Every time LL prints a L$, the value of all the other L$'s is slightly lessened. So, in essence, stipends are a form of sales tax. Ditto for whenever LL requests a project and pays in L$.

The would both make me very sad. I would mope around and moan and groan repeatedly if these taxes were enacted.

Exactly! This is why a stipend created from taxation wouldn't devalue the L$ -- no money is created, instead it is redistributed.

~Ulrika~

ummmmmmmmmmmm

NO!!!

I already pay enough in taxes in RL so why would I want to come to SL just to pay more in taxes!?!?!

Is this in addition to the hefty mothly fee I already pay? Or do I get to use that as a deduction?

Well, you're already paying for the stipend by way of a hidden tax. That is, when LL creates the L$ to pay the stipend, it devalues the L$, costing you money. With taxation, the income is redistributed preventing the devaluation of the L$. This has the net effect of placing the burden of the stipend on those who are more active in the economy and off small players such as you.

The trick is to remember that there is already a tax. The issue here is formalizing it to the benefit of the economy and small players.

~Ulrika~

I applaud your boldness (but then, who would expect anything else from you) in bringing this idea up again. It is a good one. Any state needs a source of income - otherwise it is tempted to allways print fresh money. And this usually has a lot of nasty results.

We already have a tax, though. It is called "tier" and is a very substantial one. The relation between the cost of buying land and the monthly tax (tier) is astronomical if you compare it with RL situations.

So it would make a lot of sense to tax some other types of businesses too, to get a more realistic and controllable economy.

But - given the mindset of most of the forum crowd, and the Linden Lab mantra of a freewheeling free market society - do you really expect many positive reactions? People hate to pay taxes in RL. This is completely independent of the level of taxation. They hate any tax payment. (They gladly accept any services the state pays from these taxes and often complain for more). Suggesting additional taxes is a surefire way to NOT get elected in most media-controlled democracies.

Does this mean as new people join (assuming the majority of them will be free account holders who don't sell items themselves) the taxes increase to pay stipend for all of them?

Let's pretend all money people earn in SL is sold on Lindex. Lindex moves about 25,000,000L a week. Divide that by 50 (basic stipend) - if 400,000 new people join (we have 100,000 already) you'd need 100% taxation to pay for all those stipends.

Do all the tax breaks go to the top 1%

I think they both suck. Taxes been there done that. Saw a lot of friends lose everything they had thank gawd for the -1000k L$ limit and the ability to create alts or we all would of gotten fooked. I was honest I got fooked too.

Sales tax for what road maintence lol. Oh hell no! *does a neck roll and snaps fingers.

I pay enough per month to LL they already. What have they done for me? lowered the stippends, have screwed up the dwell on a weekly if not monthly basis, are removing the devlopers incentives, took away the hosting fees for legit events, and I'm sure there was one more cut back but I haven't had nearly enough sleep or coffee to remember just this second.

Why are you suggesting these extra fees in favor of LL?

What LL directed projects that don't directly compensate LL in one form or another?

BAH!

LL devalued the L$ when they artificially inflated the economy back in the beginning of SL it was the reason for taxes. If anyone is at fault for devaluating the L$ lets look at the source first.

Formulating is a tricky business.

Damn straight.

Hey, I'll bite. It gives me another chance to pour scorn on a particular segment of the SL population, and that's always fun.

So this is going back to the idea that the people who do all the work, providing the content for the 'tourists', the bone idle and the self-pitying 'poor people with no talent' should pay a proportion of their income from that work and then another slice from whatever property they own to facilitate their business back to those residents so they can basically be entertained for free and have some pocket money to buy those products in the first place?

Uh, no. Though there are enough people that seem to think that anything and everything they could want in their Second Lives should be free to them and that they deserve to be kept constantly entertained for nothing that if you put it to the vote you'd probably get a fairly even split.

It's an attitude I don't understand at all. If you want to own the user created products and services (and events and entertainment, in my opinion, except we're too far gone with SL's totally fucked up 'pay the customer to come and be entertained' culture for it to ever turn around) in Second Life, then expect to pay for it!

No one says you have to buy anything in SL. You don't have to spend a single Linden Dollar ever! And if you do want to participate in or own the things that cost... guess what? Then its gonna cost you! And if you really do believe, as has been voiced in these forums many times before, that everything should be handed to you free on a plate including all the work that other residents are putting into their products and services, then I think you are a freeloading scumbag devoid of anything resembling normal ethics and morals and I spit on you. So please line up to be spat on here. Thanks.

And as for 'Linden directed projects', I don't really know what you mean, but if LL wanna do it, LL should pay for it. As far as I've seen most 'Linden directed projects' as I'd interpret it have been for the benefit of the select few with special interests - who should be the ones footing the bill if they want to participate. Like I said, the maxim is simple; 'pay your fucking way!'.

Disclaimer: Any 'you' in this post refers to a generic 'you who fit this description' and not any one particular individual. So if, for instance, you recognise yourself as the aforementioned unethical and moral free cheapskate scumbag, yes, I'm referring to people like you, but no, it's not a personal attack on you unless I mentioned your name. Which I didnt. (Though I'd like to see the AR report... "Hi LL. I'm one of the freeloading scumbag devoid of anything resembling normal ethics and morals that Kris Ritter talks about in this post, but I don't appreciate the truth being spelled out and consider it a personal attack!". I make this disclaimer because people have a tendency to rant back at me like I just addressed them personally with "Hey, Avatar Foo! You're a piece of shit!" when they recognise and include themselves in that number. Wow. Did you really read this far? Well done. You must be as bored as I am.

I'm not sure calling such redistribution of $L a 'tax' is quite... right.

I see it merely as redistribution of wealth.



The dictionarymongers might come after me for this, but I associate 'taxation' with 'common good', 'representation', and 'civic benefits'.

So far I've seen the Developer Incentive gamed, new account creation gamed (or do we really think adding 6y823f09jm84d567 as a first name suffix is stylish nowadays?)



Perhaps there is a net civic good due to stipends and so forth. Does anyone have numbers or strong, non-handwaving evidence that stipends are good for SL?

No.

Hell no.

I'm not working my ass off to line the pockets of other people.

*yawn*

And it is exactly this kind of attitude that exemplifies everything that is wrong with SL today!

I pay $40US property tax every single month. LL calls it a tier fee.

Prim limits have proven a much more effective means of controlling server load than charging people a linden tax per prim.

Wow that's a great post. Everybody should read it.

Is it too late for SL to operate under a real economy that requires people to pay for the things they use?

As Adam says, we are already paying taxes in the forum of devalued Linden dollars. I am 100% with Ulrika on this. I think the Lindens should stop funding efforts by "printing" money and instead take it out of our accounts with an itemized bill.

I want it itemized so everybody can see "this much was taken from your account to pay for people's stipends. This much was taken from your account to pay people for the telehub land buyback." It wouldn't cost us anymore than we already pay. The system would just be more transparent.

No taxes. I already pay a user fee.

The system would just be stealing from us.

Why should I have to give my money (most of which I buy on LindeX BTW) to some other person? Let them go to LindeX and buy their own damn money!

As far as telehub reparations goes, that's a steaming pile of BS as well. Am I getting compensated for the land I essentially had to sell at more than 50% loss when the local telehub malls got so congested that I could barely move in my own home? No. I see no reason people who were tricked into paying $10/m or more by greedy landbarons should be compensated for their own decisions.

Meh.

-Ghoti

The word "taxes" is off-putting and scary, not to mention UNFUN, to a number of people who already feel burdened enough paying them offline. The added actual conversions of L$<--->US$ in here make that comparison even more frightening.

I'm pretty much indifferent. I personally don't sell anything, and rarely do I ever actually buy something.

I tend to think that Linden is already collecting a hefty tax in the form of Tier that's a bit too high as it is. If we did have a sales tax, it would need to provide some sort of a value, such as increased stipends for folks for me to even remotely support the idea.

Then again, if we did have a sales tax to raise stipends - that would just be a mass cash redistribution. Sellers would simply raise prices to offset the hit of the tax, passing that onto the consumer. That would make any stipend increase less useful - unless you're someone like me that's not really a consumer, and would use that new stipend cash for upload fees and operating costs instead.

I don't follow the step to itemized bill. Was information provided during the previous prim tax period? An itemized account of LL's costs would be interesting but I don't understand why you believe that would happen as a result of Ulrika's proposal.