End Stipends Now

But for what you stated its buying straight up its not the lower "offer" its the lowest value the seller is selling it for not what someone is buying it for. When i buy L i put in 1 dollar it gives me so much L i don have a choice how much L i get unless i make a market order itself. Which isnt a favored proposition as the buyers need to wait for a seller to fill their order and sellers have to look for a buyer that is around the same they want to sell for.

Hence they sell straight out you pay 1 USD you get so much L you want more L you pay more. The value is put down on higher orders because the amount is set by the sellers to be lower. The problem is i dont think you understand how lindex works hunter. Have you ever bought L yet? If so you know what im talking about and wouldnt even try to dispute it.

I cant set the L > USD value i wanna buy for that is set by the seller and the lowest selling price from the seller comes up first in LindEx. This is not only a problem but encourages people to undercut one another to sell faster. If your not sure what im talking about go buy some L right now and have a look there is a huge difference between buying L and putting out a order to be filled and less people use the order to be filled method because it is slow. When you buy L you want the L then not at a later time.

I for one view LindEx as a flawed system it cant work successfully when there arnt both sides of the equation. The problem is the way that does work for a market system such as this isnt favored due to speed reasons. Now i think you havent bought L and are trying to argue the point from someone that has before and on several occasions. To call people leeches is a hypocrtical statement the only real leeches are the Lifetime accounts that get 500L a week for nothing. Premium stipends are paid for and the basic stipends really dont make a dent.

In fact a basic account would need to sign in 10 weeks straight to get as much as a premium account. Also the login percentage is down. As 1.10 came about and the more graphically demanding aspects have come into SL its harder for people to play that is one aspect. But also alot of the current members of SL got into it for the wrong reason.

And to you Fade no we dont argue that its just a game i use SL as both a game and a social structure as well as a business thing. Hunter SL cant mirror a real life economy because of the fact it already does. Its quite like the U.S economy as far as giving out money the U.S does this for many things including unemployment. And Fade people are still around because the stipends are here still if they took those away i garuntee you it would change things.

When you force people to buy any income to do anything in SL then you create a problem. People become more fickle with their money. What has happened is no so much the stipends being a problem but taking out the L that is in second life. As people have less L they buy less this comes out to less profit then the people had before. People were making mroe sales back when we had the ratings because people had more money and they made more profit because the L value was higher at the time.

I think its stupid to expect the consumers to pay for the mistakes of the sellers and thats what you guys are asking us to do. You expect everyone to turn around and buy L to do everything in SL so you can simply make a profit. This isnt the future of SL this is the future of a business platform you want SL to be. SL is not just a business platform and those of you that use it sheerly as such are the ones that are leeches. Not leeches on the linden but leeches on the social backdrop of SL itself.

You created a problem or "dug your own hole" so to speak and now you cant get out of it and want LL to fix it. You want them to fix it at the cost of all the other residents that you really could give two shits less about. Im sick of you guys trying to make your point valid by twisting around things that you know to be true just so you can get the profit.

You know what ill say it. If you hate how SL is so much why dont you just leave. Cut your losses and stop, dont sit there and devise ways to make everyone else as miserable as you are. Just because all you do in SL is work you expect everyone to and its really sad. I for one just wont buy any of your products nor will i Buy L to support you greedy folks.

I for one dont want this happening and I dont know about you but I think the lindens really dont know the truth nor do some of these people ranting on about it. I think its just going on with what the big names say. Mabye you work for them mabye you admire them but this is not something that will help you. It may help them make a few quick bucks but thats about it.

Sadly the more and more LL takes out money the less and less paying jobs there are in SL. Even jobs based off tips are becoming meaningless and about the only decent money is either selling a product or being an escort. Sadly this is something that was caused by them cutting down the amount of money coming in. More jobs would be great,

And part of the problem is these people that are against the stipends arnt using it as business and enjoyable (social) they are just using it for business.

Stipends do very very litle damage on the economy. What does damage it is morons trying to start a panic by selling huge amounts of L on e-bay for ridiculously low prices, tehreby driving dfown the value of them in general adn lowerring demand on LindeX and other sites. All..and I repeat ALL you will accomplish by ending stipends is the end of in world content creation because no one will ahve L's to purchase same, and MOSt pl don't buy L's. Unles you plan on demanding LL enforce a m,inimum wage per hour in L's fdor employers to pay and/or a minimum commision, all you will manage is killing the in world economy. There are those of us , a majority for that mater that don't log into SL merely to try day trading L's. This end stipend talk will make SL nothing more than a boring place ful of land barons trying to wheel and deal one another. Although good chance this is jsut another RBD alt trying to force us to buy L's from them.

Because the exchange rate has been stable for 2 weeks between 330 and 340, I think we should leave the premium stipend for now. The cutting of the dwell, the removal of the basic stipends and the introduction of the limit sell seems be enough to keep the exchange rate stable.

Buty the loss of basic stipends has damaged the market on in world goods. Sure it's helped the L speculators and day traders, but while screwing the rest of us totally.

Yes, I buy L$ quite often, but I use the advanced tools and make a bid. When you just click "BUY NOW" you are paying what the lowest price offer is. Now bear in mind that when I say 'lowest priced' I mean the most favorable for you that anyone has already offered at. If you use the advanced market tools, I think you may see what I'm saying.

If I want to sell L$ I have 2 choices:
1) I can SELL NOW at the current market, which would be the highest priced current bid
or
2) I can place a 'limit' order and specify the price I am willing to sell for.

...the same goes for the other side

If I want to buy L$ I have 2 choices:
1) I can BUY NOW at the current market, which would be the lowest priced current offer
or
2) I can place a 'limit' order and specify the price I am willing to buy for.

You are correct when you say that when you just hit BUY NOW, you are not receiving as favorable a trade as if you were to specify your price (put in a limit bid). You can do that though in the advanced tools. The problem with that is you'll have to wait for the market to hit your bid. If you are reasonable, your orders will always fill eventually. If you need the L$ quickly, then using the BUY NOW option will get you them, but at a less favorable price.
The Lindex exchange itself is really quite simple. If you look at the data page you can see the best BUY rate and the best SELL rate. These prices are taken directly from the current bids and offers and are exactly what you pay or receive when you use the BUY/SELL NOW option.
I guess the point I originally was trying to make was just simply that the exchange itself has no control over the L$ value. It is always what the traders are placing the market at, by their bids and offers. That said, if LL is actually trading L$ on the exchange, they can certainly influence the price with large blocks, but as far as I know, they haven't done that as yet.

-Hunter

I don't have a problem. I'm fine with things as they stand, I'll be fine if things change. You seem to have a problem however.

Except it's not an investment for me. It's a place where I see my girl and build things. Any money I put in, I consider I'm paying for entertainment and communication. I don't expect a return, other than my entertainment and communication. If my tier gets paid some months, all well and good, but I have no expectations of an income. I just don't have a problem as some others (not you) do with people making money here. I simply think, good on them.

I believe the economy allows for more interesting, higher quality content. I just want the people who provide that to be able to continue providing it, and to get rewarded for doing so, if that is what they choose.

You don't know these people, you can't know what's in their hearts and minds.

This is just an assumption on your part. You seem to view everything negatively. You assume the worst of people. I am so glad I am not like you.

Dont Care what happens one way or another .... !!! i will just deal with the sistuations as it is handed to me ...

Lina, unless I'm reading your posts wrong it appears you have not activated "Advanced" mode for the LindeX. In advnced mode you are given both the current "Market Buy" (Buy Linden Dollars) form (type in either USD or L$ and the other box changes based on the market) and the "Limit Buy" (Buy at a Specific Rate) form where you get to specify how many L$ you want and at what price USD you are willing to pay (for example type in L$50,000 and 345 and you get $145.23 as the USD cost should the entire order be filled). With the "Limit Buy" the seller are either already meeting that price (rarely) or check in on "Buy" orders and adjust their prices accordingly. Or not. If no one ever wants to sell at our offering price you either let it sit (and your USD money has already been withdrawn to cover the initial offer) or cancel the order (returning the USD to your account). You can activate advanced mode by clicking the "Currency Exchange Settings" menu choice on the right side of the "My Account" page.

Your logic seems to go: 'I don't understand what a platform is, so I'll call it a game, now that it's a game, I'm going to tell you how a game should be played.'

Once again, if it doesn't purport to be a game, how can you criticise people for not treating it as a game?

I don't find the term 'platform' ambiguous. Open-ended, yes, but still clear to me.

Well, he is right that the term "platform" is ill-defined. What is it a platform for? If it's a "platform for content creation" that doesn't account for the fact that the customers are part of it too..

What do customers in SL value?

Ok, I've stayed quiet on this one long enough I need to speak my peace. I think the recent actions of the Lindens attempt to stabalize the economy have been poorly thought out and are becoming a serious detriment to civilized society.

Case in point:
In the Last week I've had an average of three newbie account hitting my land and bowling me over in the middle of building while I'm obviously ALONE and busy. Today I alone had over 5 different people do it. Two of which when politely warned did not respond but went on to squat the land in a fashion usually most frustrating when you're building. These two which I also had a heck of a time banning from MY land which I pay 75 a month for plus what my partner owns not to mention my yearly premium account.

No I do not have a whole island so I understand I'm not one of the more important SL residents but I do not believe I'm getting my money's worth when fresh newbies that don't pay for the game can come and continually bother you. Of course Live help is no help in this matter you try to get a group IM to a Linden and a resident tells you to file a abuse report in which a Linden never showed up to get a squating newbie off my land.

IMHO Every resident should be made to pay premium to eliminate the abuse. Other wise there should be some sort of linden provided jobs OTHER THAN INSTRUCTORS since newbies more than likely will not be able to do it.

I do not believe an SL economy should depend on how rich you are IRL and how many Lindens you can buy. I am or at least make my best attempts at being a creator and I think all newbies should get a lil money to play with maybe they'd leave the lone builders alone! and spend their money on our toys instead??? I dunno that's just me though....not everyone has the time to put into being an instructor or creator in this game or "platform" whatever you prefer to call it nor the smarts for that matter. So give them a lil money to spend but Make em pay like most of us do already at least most of the ones who care anyway. What you're gonna spend a whole 500L in two whole places cmon this is just pety really. If we force everyone to be creators or WORSE go to gaming areas and cause even more greed with no opportunity for money and any Tom Dick and Harry can sign up now. What is this world coming to????????? Who's gonna be left to buy what we create guys seriously. Protect the little people too!!!

Peace Out

Well well well. For those people who come here to SL to get away from all of the Real Life back biting, social strife, moral decay, and "conservative work ethics" I must admit, I have a true empathy for them. It must be a horrible shock. It sure seems to have followed them in. Haunting their souls, it would seem. Very disturbing indeed. Quite the living nightmare.

Does it just so happen that it is because there is common element connecting Real Life and Second Life? Human interaction characteristics that seem to follow wherever man goes perhaps? Or is it something that is attached to those residents, following them around wherever it is that they go, carrying it with them like a slime, or some kind of jungle rot...attempting to infect everything that it touches?

I do not really know, and am not going to even try and claim to know the answers of how to solve their problems, concerns, and fears. Let alone, that of the entire community.


But, I can speak of my own experience, and match it with others here who seem to be of like mind as myself. I give quite a credit and my respect to "Fade Languish" who seems to be making the attempt at inspiring a THOUGHT process among those who are making assumptions, jumping to conclusions, and creating "facts" out of opinions. Perhaps to look at the OTHER side...to open ones mind, and see the road less travelled. Questions can be powerful tools. - A child once asked his father at the zoo, "Father, why does that animal keep walking into that barrel, does he not see it"? The Father said, "He sees it, he knows that it is there stopping him, he is just has not learned how to step around it".

It is rather scary to see, and read about every day. Almost with no change...non stop day in, and day out....24 hours a day. Attack after attack, name calling, lumping "others" into groups....The old "You are either with us, or against us" mentality. Good vs. Evil. All the same old rot and nonsense that has infected man from the start of time, it would seem.

Fortunately, for me, I did not come here with the expectation that the the "Real" world will simply vanish and cease to exist. I believe that I am real. I believe that my monitor is real, that my computer is real, and the Internet connection, communication lines, servers and most other users are also real. So...as far as I am concerned....This IS Real Life to me.

It is only that there are quite a few things there that are not possible in ones physical world that are allowable here in a Virtual Environment. Did anyone truly expect for this to be a place where EVERYTHING one WANTS is just GIVEN to you? OR...simply PURCHASED by those who are weathly enough to do so?

No one can GIVE you happiness. No one can BUY happiness either. Rich, or poor. Monetary wealth does not decide who we are as people. Only we can choose who we are, and how to achieve that happiness.

And, as some very wise people have said..."Freedom - is not Free" For those who are half asleep..."free" in this case is not referring to a payment of MONEY, rather the cost of making the CHOICE, to be free.


Have you ever been in love? Have you ever lost someone that you love? Oh, the rewards are wonderful! Riches that can not even be measured in any form of currency. The kind of wealth that is not supported by any government, or company at a fixed price, or even a variable one. Certainly not one open for trade. And the loss of that love....well....it is certainly not the same as having lost ones money and then trying to start from scratch without it.

Love is true happiness that is experienced, but it does not come for "free". True love is not given away as a charity, nor can it be bought.


This is a wonderful community, will endless potential. I am sorry for those who begin to limit it, by creating false walls in an attempt to reduce it into simple linear definitions. It is indeed a blank canvass (platform) on which to express ourselves.

Did I come here to make money? Did I come here to escape from work? Did I come to play a game, or steal from others? No.

I came here so that I could sit on a beach and watch the sun rise over the water along the shore of nice little beach, and to be able to share that experience with my fiance' who is seperated from me by massive amounts of land, water, and distance between us.

Just sending IM's back and forth, even using VoIP, or video chat....gets rather old after a while, and is not the same as being together. Here is a way to hold hands...to sit together...to have yet another way to experience one another while being so far apart.

It costs nothing. I do not care about the LindEX destroying my happiness, I do not care about stipends destroying my happiness. Those are both mere elements of this world that allow different people to create different things on the blank canvass provided by LL.

My canvass costs me nothing other than my time. I do not need a single Linden to enjoy my life here. For me...the value of the Linden is ZERO...and at the same time...it is INFINITE.

Snobbery, plain and simple.

Phil Linden won't call it a game because they want to be seen as innovative, ground breaking and various other adjectives instead of being 'another games company'.

Many of the users won't call it a game because they think that computer games are for losers who live in their parents basements putting on their wizard hats and cloaks on regular occasions.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. As long as Linden Labs insist on this one track advertising of 'come here and make money' - something which never happens for probably 80% or more of the playerbase - then SL will stagnate, and cannot grow.

I've not been here a year and still people are resorting to the same old same old - mostly casinos, *ingo and sex related stuff. Mostly because there is nothing else to do, unless you are heavily involved in one of the roleplay communities, who themselves often tend to be fairly exclusive.

Yesterday morning I ran an event, 1am SLT (because it was convenient for me in my timezone) - just a gathering round my campfire to chat about anything and whatever from whoever turned up. At one point, on my little 512 sq m odd shaped plot, I had over 16 people attending - and that's not because i'm the world's greatest host, but simply, in the words of many of them, "because it was something different".

There's a great untapped market in "other" things to do - and if I had the time and land to run them, I would. People to do these "other" things are what's needed; at times there are like 10 Tringo events alone going on, none of them any more exciting than the others.

Lewis

A wonderful post Sandy. I read it several times, and it lifted my spirits. I saw so much in it that I also feel.

And thankyou for recognising what I have been trying to say. I don't have an agenda, other than the one you stated.

SL is so much to me... it allows me to live again. It allows me to spend time with people. To be close to them. It allows me to dream, to create again. I don't compartmentalise it at all, it is a very real existence for me, and I exist as myself in it. I would love to still be able to do and feel in RL, the way I do here, but my body rarely allows that anymore. SL lets me be part of the world again, allows me to be human with other humans, to see things again, to be outside, to be with the girl I love despite the oceans between us... and that is worth more than all the Lindens and all the stipends in the world to me.

The only true limits I see, are the limitations we all have, in any life. I would say more, but you already articulated it so well.

I never limited it to a "platform for content creation". It is a platform for what you wish it to be a platform for.

Congradulations are in order !

Way to go, Lewis. You found a way to enjoy yourself, and to help others enjoy the community as well.

You created an event that 16 other people were willing to spend their time experiecing to do something new and different.

Something that was not the same old thing. I trust it was to your own, moral and ethical standards as well.

And, as I understand it, the total cost for everyone....was basically nothing.

All of this just yesterday. So...the spirit DOES SURVIVE...and there are things to do and enjoy in this world without profit, and without Lindens at all.

Everyone should give thanks to Lewis, who is helping to create solutions for percieved problems and flaws, rather than others who simply complain about them nonstop, and lay the blame at the feet of others.

Even TODAY (i.e. "now"....in the midst of all the doomsayers...Lewis has hosted an event that shows those things that people say are missing, and have ceased to exist..CAN, and DO in fact exist.

Lewis is not one to surrender his happiness to a faceless market, or political issues. Let more of us seek this creative energy to host others and spread happiness. It does not require the creation of "content", or Lindens, to be a creator.

Thank You, Lewis, for helping to make SL a better place for us all.

I so Totally agree with you Sandy ... very good indeed ...

Snobbery? Me? You don't know me. You know nothing of how I have lived my life. You don't know how I think, how I feel, and the things I have done in life. I couldn't even begin to tell you how I have shaped the city I live in, what I have made and given over 20 years.

So please don't ascribe such petty narrow thoughts to me. I would never consider someone a loser for playing a game. I don't have thoughts like "computer games are for losers who live in their parents basements". I avoid boxing people into such stereotypes.

I don't care if you use it as a game. I don't look down on that. I'm just saying, for many, it is something else. It can be whatever you wish it to be. Your attempts to define it as only a game, and your assertions that we should all conform to this use, your demonisation of anyone who strays from your view, your use, is what I take issue with.

You make judgements on people you don't know. You use terms like 'greedy' to define them. You've thrown some of that my way, without ever having met me, simply because I express another view.

You don't know what is in my heart and mind, or Philip Linden's for that matter. Maybe you should stop imagining the worst in people? I do in SL as I have in RL... I create for the love of creation, I live to create, and I live to love. Money has never been part of that equation - quite the opposite in fact. I have lived my life and followed my passions with total disregard to money. I've paid the price for that too, but I wouldn't have it any other way.

ps: read the Derrick May quote in my sig. It's there for a reason. It describes me.

The same things they do in RL.

Why is it so wrong to make money?? This statement is so poorly written. I would agree if you said there are ppl in SL, just like in rl, that will do anything to rip ppl off. That doesn't mean a majority of "big players" are just here for money.

So if I cash out a few hundred dollars does that mean I'm just doing it just for money? You know that is a great part about, but I also enjoy talking to ppl in SL. I enjoy making things and am willing to put in 20 hours a week to do it. Someone told me its not worth it because it doesn't pay enough and could make more money working at a part-time job. Well this I enjoy doing because I feel a sense of accomplishment when I finally complete something. I'm going to spend the next month trying to make a skin and it will likely take 80 hours at the rate I'm going. I can't wait to see how well I can do. I paint in rl and enjoy doing that just the same as working in Photoshop.

Just hearing someone say that I did a good job on an outfit is great, because I feel many may not appreciate how difficult it can be to make a quality outfit. They simply never have done so themselves, so how would they understand.

This thing about whether its a game or not depends on who plays it.

Well the thing is its not so wrong to make money. Its the means to which people will go to make it that is the problem. Alot of the players that are cashing out near 1000 dollars a month are in fact just here for money. They dont have the money to cover their tier in real life alot of the time either and as such when it comes time to cash in those lindens guess what? They are going to go about selling it in the fastest means possible so their account doesnt get put on hold till they can pay it in real life.

While you can balance both a social and business model for SL alot of the bigger names that are cashing out dont they use it as a business model and not much else. Me i use it as an in game business model I dont sell my L i spend the L i make in world and i use it as a social platform as well. SL isnt a game to most people and i doubt it is to lewis either. He just feels alot like I do that the business end of things is abused quite a bit and those that use it more towards a social end end up suffering because of it.

Like removing the basic stipends and the signup bonuses for new accounts for instance. Now when new players sign up hey guess what they got no money at all. Thats what i mean the basic stipend really didnt do anything and didnt really hurt the economy. Much as people will try to dispute it the money coming into SL isnt the problem. We could have 0L coming into SL a week. If these people wanted to continue to sell their L fast they would still undercut one another. They arnt working together to bring up the value of the L but are rather working against one another and thats bringing it down as well.

As long as people out there keep using it to cover all their payments and rely soley on SL to make those payments the value of the L is going to go down. You have even more people doing real estate and stuff now that are putting in these huge chunks of cash at under value to collect enough so they can pay it off.

While them making a profit is great and all i for one do not want these people ruining others experience in SL just so they can make some money and thats whats happening with the anti-stipend people. They want it so we are all poor from the get go and are forced to buy their over priced L. Do you want to see that happen? If your friend comes to SL do you want to explain to them why they have to pay so much just to get started?

If a place helping treat people in SL comes into SL and wants to get these kids started are they going to be forced to buy this over priced L for an experience that honestly has been helping people in the real world with things like Aspbergers Syndrom which is a social disease. Considering most of the population is made up by people that are not here for business why take away their money and force them to buy it. How freaking kind of you to want to ruin so many people's experience in sl (insert sarcasm here).

In all honesty all you anti-stipend people are doing really is ruining SL as it is. It is something more then a mere game, social platform, and business platform. It is a world and as such needs to be a mix of the 3. These businesses wont survive if the stipends are gotten rid of and i can garuntee you that. Because people that may normally go to your shop and spend some L on something you worked hard to make wont have that L coming in anymore. They will be forced to buy it and will then be alot more fickle with their money. They will be able to buy less and as such everyone here whining that the stipends are hurting their profits will see an even bigger dent.

Learn to balance your SL experience people because if you are here for sheerly business your not going to have fun.