What about the poor people with TOO MUCH talent?

Uh oh, bullshit detector is quivering. Methinks thou jesteth. Er, whatever.

(Earlier Prok said I was smart. I turned off the bullshit detector for that because I wanted to bask in the glory.)

nice post, BP. I wonder about the "borrow ideas for good of community" thing. I guess some people do that, and try to justify it in this way. But I think a lot of idea sharing is more subconscious.

i agree, sometimes things are copied -- sometimes people think of things at the same time -- and sometimes we are just subconsciously influenced by what we see and it comes out in our own expression. Do i begrudge Van Gogh for being influenced by delacroix? No. Robert Henri came back from France at the turn of the last century and influenced a whole wave of American artists. Were they copying him, and was he copying the wild art he was seeing among the impressionists and the start of the fauves? Yes and no. Each member of his group (some know as the 8, some as the ash can school) had a unique style and contributed so much to American art. They fed off of each other. So did all of the impressionists for that matter. I don't think that any of them were plaguarists. Well, ok, maybe Braque was a poor man's Cezanne (joking).

sorry, i'm veering off into tangents in my brain. prok, we'll agree to disagree like we do on most things funnily enough, but that's cool. A bunch of clones would be a helluva boring world.

Alternativly, a bunch of clones would be one helluva technical achievement...

public domain is work that people can use to make other cool things from.. a good example would be, the internet, the protocols for which were created in the mid 60's and early 70's and released into public domain by the us government and the academic institutions of the time.

It is the public 'well of knowledge' and daily culture.. its nursery rhymes, aesop's fables, classical music etc etc.

and yes when you release something into the public domain, you mantain no rights to that material, someone else could turn around and sell it, but they could also turn it into somethin better than you could think of, the internet is a perfect example thereof... if someone had held a tcp/ip copyright, we would not be having this discussion, in all likliehood the net as we know it would simply have never existed.

They could never have imagined second life in 1965, but without the good work that was released to the world, the human collective as it were, it would not exist today.

this thread has tremendous entertainment value and i'm not even half way down the first page. i'm going to bookmark it as potentially top ten best threads ever.

Given SL tags things with their basic permission, i made, and use a (PD) tag after the name of objects that i have create that i am formally entering into the public domain. Things like active script scanners, particle engines, etc, useful stuff people can and should use to help them find more nefarious scripts like land scanners, or to create interesting things of their own.

I enter them into the public domain formally, and unequivocably. if you want to try selling them outright, go ahead.. if you want to make something different that uses my script as a foundation, go ahead. if you want to collect them all up into an 'eltees random stuff' box and put it for sale for $1 in a junkyard, go ahead, whatever.

Thats not to say i don't sell things at all, i just choose to sell silly frivolous things that are fun.

give the tools, sell the toys, and the world gets a lil more interesting

I agree... this is classic.

I think I can nutshell it though:

Prokofy: "Just because you're busy in real life and make a decent income doesn't mean you have the right to do what you want in SL. My needs must be catered to! ATTEND! I also want to sell your product that you give away for free! LET ME!"

heheh, technically within SL aren't we all clones? I mean we start out looking exactly the same, we just hide that under a load of makeup and/or colored wooden blocks

We need a 'bling per second' tool to measure some of us which is usually inverse to the sim's health.

Ingrid gets it right again.

Um, yeah, sure, whatever, I'll get the $5000 LL which is your limit per day, then ahhh...I think I won't do that again *tomorrow* because of all the fees that will start eating up with so many multiple transactions, each time clipping me at some end, if not both.

Even buying the Lindens more expensively from IGE is better, given your low ceiling on purchases using credit cards. Not sure if you can buy more with PayPal, it remains to be tested.

sry, but if you flog your services in every thread, I will do a little consumer feedback, too. All in all, it's nice to have a 7/11 kinda place in SL like GIGAS mall where if you really are hurting for $5000 in the middle of the night, and are tapped out elsewhere on their limits, or just feel like using a credit card instead of paying PayPal's greater fees, you can make use of Hank's service.

Uh, you didn't get it Ingrid.



You are saying this as some kind of uber-scornful repartee you are congratulating yourself over mightily. But sit with it a minute and realize that any person who comes along and says "I want to sell your product that you gave away for free" is to be WELCOMED in any FREE economy. They should either be selling things that were put in the public domain by those who understand that such goods should be in the public domain, or the innovator should PAY those people and they should be willing to accept pay. This is how normal economies work outside of SL Bolshevism. It's ok, it's legit, and it's not a subject of derision. If someone can figure out how to take a rock and call it a pet rock, and collects free rocks out of my garden to do it, God Bless them. If I'm smart, I will at least start charging them a quarter.

And really, I"m not saying "everybody in SL has to do what I say," that's silly. I'm merely portraying people who knock others with their arrogant attitudes, saying that what they do in SL -- which is fool around because they are fabulously wealthy and they don't care about business -- is what they like to call "the right way," and they knock those who work in SL and make it a business. There is a real clash of cultures here. I describe it, I don't cause it. I see it all the time.

I don't want to sell the product for free DUH. I'm offering to BUY IT. That's the PROBLEM duh. The idea is to be able to PURCHASE scripts people have made, if you have an idea to improve upon them, elaborate them, package them. But you can't because often they are jealously guarded as "free" forever by someone who doesn't even log in anymore. Try to imagine RL where you could never improve upon the Kleenex because the Kleenex guy not only gave it away for free, he didn't SAY it was TRULY in the public domain, i.e. that you could use it, he said YOU CANNOT EVER SELL IT. You see the difference? If something were REALLY in the public domain like real life, you could use it and sell it. But what happens in SL is very different!

I see what you mean now eltee is the notion of something being "in the public domain". I Like a paperclip might be "in the public domain now". I didn't see that context immediately because somehow my eye fastened on "Internet" and "domain" and didn't see you were talking about the age-old concept of "public domain" in its meaning of things like water. In fact, what a lot of the scripters and content barons think they have in SL is "eminent domain" to do whatever the hell they want.

Like I said, if you all were paying attention, I don't have any needs that need catering too, I don't have anything I'm trying to make to impress SL, whatever odds and ends I put together and sell are just like some hobby in my basement. I'm not Owen Khan selling amazing dance animations or something, I'm just posing these issues as GENERIC. Try to separate these generic issues and discuss them without trying to pillory me once again over nothing, and over silly misreadings of what I wrote anyway.

Please note what came out this discussion, which is EXTREMELY important, useful, and decent from eltee:




See? That was what I was after. Go, eltee. He gets it. But why don't you all? That's the idea. All these FIC-ed should follow this example and stop sitting on their "free scripts generously donated to mankind for $0 and $1" like dogs in the manger and REALLY put them into the public domain, which means REALLY giving them away and stop griping and sniping every time you catch someone selling them for a $1 or putting them in a prettier prim and selling them for $50. Get off your ass and sell them for $50 yourself if you don't like it. This is what I was after. This is what is required for real innovation and progress. The too-talented need to "get this".

OK, so when everbody gets over hooting and hollering and giving 5 stars to see the latest bash-Prokofy fest, you will see that once again, I made an invaluable contribution. End of message.

Did you just say, "arrogant attitudes"?



This is really becoming a (F)ucking (I)nsipid (B)ore.

Ah, if you take something that was free, make changes to it, make it better, then resell it... Why would anyone have a problem with that?

If you take something that was free, don't make any changes, then sell it for a high price... well you probably won't sell any.

if you want to leave an object/script etc open, as in GPL open, and not public domain open, add in a little (GPL) manually in the name. That way at least you have a leg to stand on when you get upset someone else tries to sell it. If you just want to keep yer name associated with it, use an appropriate (CC) aka creative commons, tag... if you really do just want to make something and share it with the world, unequivocably, tag it (PD).

If you don't do that, you basically don't have much of a leg to complain about when you see someone else selling something you made and released with open SL permissions.... by tagging it you at least can point to that fact and say this person disregarded the license (a notecard further explaining the license you choose cannot hurt either honestly), creative commons can generate that automatically, generally gpl/pd are more understood.

but be aware... unless you do use the more open cc licenses, or pd licenses, you are not 'giving away' your code. you are attaching a 'limited' nocopy/nomod tag on it. Only public domain and open CC truly give the code you have worked on, back to the people of SL

So when people say no to you and don't care about YOUR business, you file them under the arrogant folder.



Why should they? Because you want them to? Alot of people in SL don't give a rats ass about the economy, and despite what you think (because you feel the world should revolve around you), that's perfectly ok.





Hey whatever gets you through your day.

What's so hilarious about this statement is that EVERYBODY is part of the economy, even if they "don't give a rat's ass about it". That's what is so funny about all these high-and-mighty who think they are so uber cool and don't "need" to work in SL and can either just hack around and then say they are completely indifferent to commerce -- yet keep a jealous hammerlock on their $1 creations, blasting anyone who tries to sell them.

Now, it's fun to hack around and be creative. Let them. It's their game. Who could care? I don't care. I am not knocking them. What I am doing is pushing back when they knock ME. That's the difference.


They all get their stipend, and they all spend it. I'm not aware of anyone who logs on who leaves their stipend to just pile up endlessly LOL. So they DO care about the economy, because they participate in it. This is the kind of ostrich-like saying for which the FIC is known. No, I don't think the world should revolve around me, because I know it already revolves around you LOL.

WHO is knocking you??? You are not being "knocked" when someone says no to you. It's their perrogative to do whatever the hell they want here. That's why people log in. It's not a slight against YOU.

See, that's where you're wrong. Everything is a slight against him, it's how the world works. Has to suck... I feel for him.

Really? have I ever ONCE told you what you should be doing? NO. Never. But you post endlessly about what everyone and their brother SHOULD be doing, over and over.

I'm just pushing back against the feted inner Prokofy who thinks everyone should abide by his rules.

yup! top ten!

I'm tired of the word "uber."

hmm.. me too.

Trouble is, SOME people who do this are actually just preying on the noobs and the uninformed. In fact, I think pretty much all the anti-sell-free-stuff sentiment is aimed at this kind of thing. Selling a house to a noob that you can get for free at a telehub, that's really not very nice.



SL Bolshevism? I don't see it.

Here's the GNU license:

http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html

Prok, if you are saying "all free software should be GNU licensed", you are not alone. Lots of people think that's true. There is another school of thought, however, that intellectual property owners should not give anything away for free. (Bill Gates falls in that category. Not that he thinks they shouldn't be allowed to do it, he thinks they ought not. But I ought to let him speak for himself. You a SL resident there Billg?)

Under the law there is a "fair use" doctrine that says that intellectual property rights have limits. However, modifying and selling are NOT "fair use" under the law.

Not all intellectual property rights are necessarily valid. For example, the concept of "just a rock" does not rise to the level of "intellectual property", so you can't violate anybody's rights by adding "pet" to "rock".

In RL, the GNU license creates a contract that intellectual property owners can use to permit others to modify and redistribute, or even create derivative works without losing ownership of the concepts and ideas. They can even optionally allow others to sell if they want to.

RL does NOT work the way you suggest. In fact, in RL, intellectual property owners must invoke contracts such as GNU in order to create the situation you crave. By default, intellectual property owners dictate who can do what with their work.

Buster

yeah, sometimes i wonder what Second Life Prok lives in. It is amazingly different from mine. I have never had anyone tell me what i can or cannot build. I have seen some people try to take credit for an "original idea" that really isn't and watched them get offended, but foolish will be foolish and I refuse to let someone's inanity ruin my fun.

I find people to be very nice across all SL-ages. The FIC is a silly, jealous concept, and if any Linden's have good relationships with the early adopters, well that is to be expected, human nature and very forgiveable. The world is big and getting bigger, and the lindens cannot hold everyone's hand or coo over our projects.

Problems will happen that the lindens cannot attend to; bugs will exist that will take them time to fix. It is good to raise the issue but no need to be a prick about it (actually prok, i have someone else in mind, not you, when i say that).

why be so relentlessly negative about the system and the structure and the people?

I think this is a great, diverse, creative society. There are always exceptions, that is humanity (humanity is messy), but maybe i just have a better tune-out filter.

still prok, you must be having some kind of fun, cause you're still in the game.