Philip Linden on Zoning

I'm going to stop posting here because I know you're enjoying this Prok. You get a kick out of it. You enjoy roleplaying, being the villain. Go ahead, keep baiting. I'm tired of giving you what you want. But when you do get it from others, don't go whinning about it. That's so unbecoming.

(sigh)

The moron trolls I can handle, but posts like this from people like Ingrid are really depressing.

Prok, Ingrid is one of the most genuinely talented people in SL who plays a big role in creating the most sought after zoned area in all of SL.

Cut her some slack.

Ingrid, Prok is isolated by the community because of his views so he's always on the defensive. I hope your solution isn't for him to change his views.

But, somehow I sense that nothing will fix problems like this.

I guess we will all have to agree to disagree and at some point the forums will have to go away and we can just subscribe to each others blogs.

Too bad, but I sense more and more that is the best solution.

Do you even know what an intellectual discussion is?

Prok, I often agree with the gist of your observations. Er, I mean, often I notice that some of your observations are the same as mine.

Where I disagree with you is usually the cause behind the effect. For example, when you say the group tools are broken, I agree with that. When you add, "because Linden is anti-business", that's where you lose me.

There is a difference between campaigning for change and causing change. If you're too nasty or shrill, people may actually resist change in order to avoid giving you satisfaction.

Buster

Buster, you're just from a different culture than me, that's all.

Resist, resist, and then resist, I say. Jump up and down.

Ingrid is already screaming that "the Lindens are listening to me" and sobbing that "I run everything" and that I"m "the new feted".

This is hilarious.

The Lindens didn't do anything.

The Lindens don't listen to me lol.

And if they listened to anything I might point out about land tools being crappy, then they'be listening to thousands of other players who think the same thing.

I'm willing to bet that the Lindens, in squaring the circle between the harsh realities of the need to be pro-business in the liberal marketplace of a capitalist society, and the need to please all those Bobos in Paradise with their left-leaning crack-pot ideologies who are among the big spenders on their game, they're going to do this:

1) Make a group leader or group investor category in the land tools so that person cannot be dismissed.
2) But keep officer recall so that person cannot create a corporation with himself as CEO and a board of trustees that have powers of mangement but not power to resell the corporation's assets.

Ahaha, and obviously they are listening to Mr. Nice Guy Peel!

Anyways, the nasty part is not the problem (though it certainly doesn't help)

I guarantee you if Prok didn't litter his posts with personal comments he'd get the same reception.

The thing is Prok has no problem suggesting ideas that no one likes because he has no desire to play mr. popular.

This is not a weakness, this is a clear strength.

Trying to make friends is a completely different activity than critical analysis.

Yep. It amazes me that someone who has the capactiy either chooses not to see it or cannot see it.

I think Juro, that Prok is consumed by his own vision so the personal feelings of others are irrelevant.

Which is a very admirable quality in theoretical discussions.

I agree, Blaze, that there is strength in not caring what others think and moving forward with thier ideas, but - not recognizing that your 'snarky' posts cause people to a) not read your ideas and b) setup an opposing view simply becuase they think you're an ass is a major weakness.

It defeats all your efforts because the message becomes polluted with all the little mean/snarky/snippy comments in it and the core of the message, the call for change, is lost.

Yeah, he's got to get over that.

But, really there are lots of people who do nothing but post 100% snarky (cough max cough kritter cough) and yet the community accepts them.

So, really, when the community blasts Proks for the 30% snarkiness, I can only laugh at the community.

True, but even at 30%, we're talking VOLUME.

Nobody rambles on like Prokofy - which is another weakness, I believe.

I'm hoping that Prok will realize that these give him/her less credibility on the forums, which is unfortunate, as Prok has some good ideas.

But, I digress.... how about that zoning?

I'm all for it!

I really wish I could go to two or three sims (we're talking out of 700 sims here) and elect someone like Lordfly or Ingrid or one of the very many other talented builders in SL to preside over that sim without them (or me) having to buy the whole sim.

Blaze, if you can see past the vitriol, the condescending remarks, the constant put downs of other people to get to the crux of what Prok's thinks needs to be changed, then that's great. I've never said he didn't have any good ideas. But I think SL is about community, and treating people with respect. He fails there. Big time.

You and I can disagree, but I have yet to see a nasty remark exchanged between us, here or in-world. To me, that's the way things should be handled. It's FAR more productive.

Any time a thread descends into irrelevant character assassination, rational discussion is aborted. You can't debate the merits of an idea during a barroom brawl.

It is true that some people who disagree with Prok would disagree regardless of the delivery, because they disagree with the underlying ideas and wouldn't be convinced no matter what. The problem is with the people who might be persuaded, or who might agree with the ideas.


I completely agree. Name calling, insulting, baiting and belittling your debating partners is not critical analysis either.

bah, don't listen to me. Read a book.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1565541464/ref=pd_sim_b_1/102-4027129-7460160?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671723650/qid=1114095881/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-4027129-7460160?v=glance&s=books

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0688128165/qid=1114095722/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl14/102-4027129-7460160?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0814470637/ref=pd_sim_b_6/102-4027129-7460160?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance

Absolutely, Ingrid, however I think if we're going focus in on the flaming, we need to deal with the people who contribute nothing but vitriol first.

Yep.. and 4 out of 5 times, its the Prok Flock.

Absolutely buster, I agree 100%.

However, if its "belittling" what we're all worried about, I don't think Prok is who we should be going after, or at least we can get to him in turn.

You mean Prok's fans? Yes, that's true. A lot of flames start out with Prok posting an idea that freaks everyone out so they belittle him and then he rolls into defense mode.

Juro, I have to say that in all this time, I haven't seen you post a tenth as much as you've posted lately merely to try to put me down. You're not putting out ideas, you are merely trying to pick me apart as a person. You even shed your nice artistic customer-service persona to do that, and believe me, that doesn't make you look good.

If you set up an empty and witless opposing view just because some cultural aspect of what I do or say offends you, you're exposed as empty and witless.

I hardly think my efforts are defeated if a few effete feted (sorry LBJ) are offended.

The snippy comments a la Ingrid always come first to my comments, which usually don't contain any kind of personal insult (I'm only goaded into personal comments way down in a thread).

My anti-business thread, for example, is a crystal-clear essay of ideas, with facts, and premises laid out, that categorizes behaviours, classifies groups, talks about obstructive behaviors, but doesn't pillory some individual. Yet in responding to these very important ideas and posts, most people couldn't muster an idea, they could only slam me personally.

You just don't get it, do you Prok. It's not about 'you'... it's about how you deliver your message. Which is, in my eyes, unfortunate because as I've said a lot of what you have to say is lost becuase of the delivery.

I would be happy to elaborate more on this with you inworld sometime.

Prok is not the only practitioner, just the most prolific. Others have been pretty nasty too so I think its unfair to accuse Prok alone. In fact, Prok's outbursts are uusally in reaction to the unkindness of others.

Enough about Prok, let's talk about me.

No, wait, let's talk about Zoning.

No, Juro, I believe you have it wrong.

It's an issue of shooting the messenger. Prok could sugar coat this all he wants but people are still going to freak out on him.

There are tonnes of threads that people proposed simple ideas around here politely and got attacked non stop because it Wasn't The Way Things Were Done.

Obviously being polite is not enough. The idea also has to have merit. Aren't you glad I'm here to point this out.

No, the idea doesn't *have* to have merit.

Quite often when solving very very challenging problems and I don't know where to start the first thing I like to do is throw out stupid ideas just to get some headway, any headway.

And besides, that's still no excuse for belittling the person proposing the idea.

You might start with a stupid idea but as others offer feedback, explain the ways that your logic is faulty, and build upon the original notion, an intelligent person listens, learns, and changes that original stupid idea into a more intelligent and informed one. Not so with Prokofy. People who are convinced of their own rightness and who not only turn a deaf ear towards constructive counterpoint but deride, berate, and insult those who offer it are likely to cause people to run out of patience. They will end up being treated in kind and on that rare occassion when their idea doesn't start out stupid to begin with, no one is going to listen to them.