Unobstructed flight path?

I want to propose creating a vehicle (aircraft) flight path, unobstructed by ban lines, and not influenced by auto return of objects, throughout SL, placed somewhere above 1000m. I would greatly appreciate technical and other feedback on this idea. Thanks.

why?

So that airplanes don't get autoreturned when travelling through a parcel.
Although sim crossings are still a bigger threat.

Yes, sorry. I was trying to be as brief as possible. I'm finding it almost impossible to travel around in an airplane because of two issues: 1. the sim crossing "bug" and 2. security measures causing my vehicle to disintegrate, be auto-returned, and me plunging into a vortex that causes me to restart SL. Assuming the sim crossing bug could be fixed, security measures would still be a barrier to flight. I certainly see the problem with reducing security (griefers), but I'm wondering if it's possible to simply place a lid on property security lines, rather than having them extend up to infinity. That way, people still have security, and others can fly at will. I mean, it isn't possible to build at 1000m, so what use is this space to a landowner?

Just for the sake of presenting the idea more fully, I can imagine this opening up a new business opportunity for entrepenuers who could open airports and either charge for access to runways, or provide this access for free and the business model would depend upon the high traffic to attract shop owners, similar to a mall concept. I think that making air travel practical in SL would allow creative thinkers to develop all kinds of interesting, fun (and even profitable) activity.

The highest an object containing a security script can be placed on land is 768 meters.

The furthest that script can be placed from the center of the object is 40 meters.

The furthest that script can sense your plane is between 96 and 384 meters, depending on who you believe. I've had sensors work to 384 meters when scanning for avatars, for example.

So, 768 + 40 + 384 = 1192.

Above 1192 meters you can't be sensed or attacked by a security script unless someone is insane enough to put one in a *physical* object and run it up and down *just* to find planes flying hundreds of meters above any place they could need to protect. I don't know of anyone doing that, never even heard of anyone doing it.

So for what good t does, you have your "unobstructed flight path".

The next issue is, of course, sim crossing problems, but that's a whole different kettle of bugs.

Thanks, Argent. I appreciate that clarification. So, I guess (setting aside the sim crossing issue for a second), the only remaining impediment is flying across land that is already full to capacity of prims?

Wow, what kind of hardware are you using that you can set your draw to 1000 meters, to make all this unobstructed flying worthwhile, or at least more interesting, then simply flying for it's own sake. For that matter, what version of the CLIENT, since draw maxes out at 512 anyway

They just need to fix the sim crossings. Going to vary widely based on the size and complexity if your aircraft, anyway. Could depend on the vehicle scripts themselves, I have one car with a 'sim crossing' script that apparently eases the pain or helps recover, and uses advanced, sim-friendly scripts' as a selling point. I'm not sure what that means, of course, if it's something specific they can do or just clean code. My 200-some prim Blackhawk is nearly useless most of the time, while my 30-odd prim Sikorsky rarely ever gives me a problem (Be interesting to see what happens if I was in the Sikorski wearing a 200-prim attachment, but there you are). Just watch your speed, and for the love of God Linden, don't hit a sim corner, and you'll be ok a good bit of the time.

I, for one, would never use a kilometer-high flightpath. There's too much to see (Ignoring all the crap in the sky. Have you seen all the crap in the sky? Stuff just...having out at 600m for no apparent reason)! When it works, flying and driving is a really nice way to see the world...I've only relatively recently realized that, and I've had vehicles since my first day! Had some really nice long drives and flights lately, covering a lot of territory, and when the system behaves (and I mess with my draw distance and dial down object complexity ) , it works great!

Sorry, some confusion here. I meant flying at an altitude of 1000 meters high (above where people build things). I didn't mean I could see (set my draw) for 1000 meters. In fact, that's precisely the problem. I CAN'T see what's coming until it's too late, even when I'm creeping along. Now that I understand I can fly above 1200 meters and not worry about ramming into ban lines, I can do that (but the sim border problem is still the biggest limiter. I see that now). Also, I agree that there isn't anything to see up that far, but the real problem is getting the plane to a place where I can fly around at lower altitudes so I can see some stuff. If I teleport to a large, empty place, good for flying, like Linden Reserve, I have trouble finding a spot that allows me to rez the plane. So, my reasoning for flying so high is simply getting the plane to the spot.


Having said all that, maybe this isn't a big deal to others? I guess I was having fun flying a new plane and was sort of disappointed that it didn't really work to fly it to destinations (I can go in tight circles, but that gets old quick). Maybe there isn't enough interest in this functionality to generate change?

As a frequent flyer in SL myself (I hate TP), I can identify very well with your concerns, Lilliput. Therefore, I think you and others reading this might be interested in other proposed ways to improve the SL flying experience--specifically, the ability to "map" (on the minimap, not the world map) banned parcels. This was discussed in this forum a while ago. I'm thinking of bumping the relevant thread after I post this, in fact.

As for there not being enough interest, you may be right at least in the sense that many long-suffering residents seem to be unaware of these proposed solutions. Feature proposal #1811, which requests a feature that would show banned parcels on the minimap so they could be avoided, hasn't had a vote in weeks I think there are a great many people who would support this if only they knew the idea was out there

Actually, it got my vote right before I started this thread. At the time, I thought my suggestion was substantially different, which is why I brought my idea here, but now I realize that I just didn't understand how things worked. (IOW, I didn't realize I could avoid security by flying at 1200 m). I think #1811 is definately a good idea, though. I can't (and don't want to) stay at 1200m all the time, so when I descend, it would be nice to be able to anticipate a collision with a ban line. So, I fully support #1811 and encourage others to vote also.

I've been playing around with this for an hour or so, and I have figured out how to approach sim borders without losing my ship too often, but there does not seem to be any way I can control whether someone has a full parcel (full 'o prims, that is). I can't anticipate (and avoid) a full parcel, and it causes my ship to be destroyed instantly. I honestly can't think of any solution to this problem, short of requiring every resident to maintain a prim buffer on their land. I don't think such an idea would be well received. I suppose the only other option is for LL to build in a prim buffer to every parcel in SL to account for vehicles flying over.

Flying way up out of sight range of the ground is about the only way to avoid obstructions. Its also boring as hell. So for those of us who like to fly with a view of the scenery below, we are simply screwed. I get blown out of the sky by ban devices all the time, you never know they are coming until its too late. If everybody had a time delay between the time you entered restricted airspace, and the time the device nukes you, things would be more tolerable. As for warnings of prim stuffed territories, or buffers of some type, I dont foresee that happening anytime soon. Id just be happy making it across a conventional border intact and in control.

well if you don't pay for the land you can't expect any rights on it

I recall LL stating that there's no ownership over a certain height.

The full parcel issue becomes entangled with the banned parcel issue because its destructive effects on vehicles are often very similar, but I suspect the two issues are technically rather diffferent. For one thing, while showing (blanket) banned parcels on the map would probably be easy to implement, keeping track of which parcels are full for mapping purposes would put an enormous load on the servers, as the contents of any parcel can change literally at the drop of a hat (or any other prim).

Having said that, a recent casual remark by Kelly Linden in the blog suggests that either (1) vehicles are already supposed to be exempt from full parcel restrictions, or (2) such a feature is in the process of being implemented. Of course, if LL thinks (1) is already the case, we should start firing off bug reports, so it would be nice if Kelly or some other Linden could elaborate on this (hint, hint). One way or the other, though, the full parcel problem and the banned parcel problem are likely to need very different fixes. Something like proposal #1811 is sorely needed to make banned parcels less disruptive; I don't know how Kelly or LL would implement the exemption of vehicles from full parcel rejection, but the fact that they seem to think it is either already in place or on its way to being implemented suggests that it is at least feasible.


I'm sorry Kyrah, but this is not even true in RL. If you were to drop massive concrete walls without warning in front of moving vehicles on a public road just because your property line happens to encroach on the road, you would quickly receive a visit from officers of your local police force, and not to commend you for your sense of civic responsibility either. As they are currently implemented, banned parcels are simply overly aggressive (and, as I have noted in another post in the thread referred to by Sabena, strongly frowned upon in some private sims such as Caledon, and IMPAO rightly so).

I have no wish to deny the rights of landowners (heck, I'm one myself now), but these banned parcels are (1) overwhelmingly victimizing innocent passersby who just want to do exactly that, PASS BY and otherwise leave you alone; (2) relatively ineffective as a deterrent for would-be griefers anyway, and may in fact actively attract them; and (3) quickly becoming as serious if not more serious a problem for many SL residents than the griefers themselves. Since I started to keep track three weeks ago, I have been actively targeted by griefers 18 times... and de facto griefed by collisions with ban barriers 157 (one hundred and fifty seven) times. I hate griefers with a deep passion, and I want to sympathize with the plight of harassed landowners, but those statistics have given me pause.

However, i don't think Real life is a good comparison, in real life you can't fly by yourself and if you climb the fence of a private propery, in real life i have the right to have a dog that guard my property don't expect it to be a nice greeter. Also in real life we have a need of air ways due to commercial planes, wich are not a need in SL.

Ban barriers aren't griefing, a lot that what peoples call griefing isn't, most is just a mere little frustration, but humans can get over frustration right?

Sorry to be blunt, but as long as it will be me that shell the bill for a specific plot of land, it will be up to my good will to decide who has the right to use it, even if it just mean crossing it.
Of course i am not the type that will ban everybody for the joy of it, but i believe i have the right to do so, if we compare with web hosting, i am free to refuse access to any ip range i choose as long as i pay my bills.
Caledon is owned by desmond, since he pay the server bill its him that makes the rules.

Since no one has suggested that you don't have this right, nor is anyone suggesting taking this right away, I'm not really sure what your point is. In fact, this discussion has centered around figuring out a way to allow others to enjoy SL with the security measures remaining in place. All #1811 is suggesting is a way to see the ban lines so we don't crash into them. It was explained to me that I can fly above 1200m, and I'm perfectly happy to do this, but, at some point I have to land, and it would be nice to be able to steer around ban lines in the process. It would also be nice to avoid having my ship disappear beneath me if I fly over a full parcel.

And regarding whether we "need" airplanes, well, is there anything in SL we really need? Its a game, right? Isn't the point to have fun?

That should not be a problem, unless you get off the plane in that parcel, because vehicles (objects with an avatar sitting on them) shouldn't be counted against the prim limit.
I was under the impression that vehicles were already exempt from prim limits as well. I have seen that in the past, where I have landed on a "full" parcel and my plane wasn't returned until I stood up. If your plane is returned on *entering* a full parcel, I believe you need to bug-report that.

Kyrah: all rights in SL including rights over land you "own" are and should be provisional. The current situation penalizes free flight far too much even where there are no possible conflicts with the privacy rights of landowners that free flight would create.

Hmmm...I was seeing notes on my screen about my plane being returned to my lost and found because the parcel was full right after it disappeared from under me and I began my spin into negative vector coordinates. I assumed the plane vanishing was related to the full parcel, but maybe it's two different things happening. Maybe I'm crashing into a sim border, the ship comes apart from me, and the ship then sails off into a full parcel without me and is returned. The only thing that's confusing is that I'm always stuck in the flight position, just without the plane, as I dive into solid rock for 1000s of meters. I'll have to experiment with this some more to see which it is.

Border crossing anomolies are the only thing ive encountered that send me rock diving thousands of meters into the planets crust, and yes, still sitting with my hands on the no longer existent wheel. Returns tend to just drop me, or bounce me somewhere else. As for being militantly protective of my property to the point of wanting to ban aircraft passing overhead or shoot them out of the sky with ban machines, I dont get it. The trespasser who gets into your house can only leave some cubes laying around, and unless your on a locked island, anybody can pretty much cam around and see whats in there.

Maybe the real solution is to just call it a sport and charge admission. I could set up my plane and a little ticket booth near the corner of Plum. It's definately a wild ride.

I think that all parcel restrictions should stop where the ban wall stops. Above that height you don't even see the restriction status icons on your screen. People can say what they want but in my own experience parcel restrictions are in effect well above 1000m. At least cut off the restrictions at the cloud layer and the ban wall just short of the unassisted flight level so people can still fly over bannerd parcels to get to where they are going. I also find it unacceptably annoying to have your parcel surrounded by ban walls. Instead of packing parcels together lke sardines there should be a neutral zone between them to allow unrestricted travel. I once had my land caged in my banned parcels and it wasn't pleasent. I know there are others who don't like it either. In my opiniion it degrades the value of the property so if you try to sell it you won't be able to get as much for it. Who wants a parcel of land caged in my ban walls, especially when you're trying to make money with your parcel.

To put it simply, parcel owners MUST sacrafice some security options in order to relax unnecessary restrictions on legitimate travel throughout the world.

The problem of crossing sims can be addressed, and the problem of the excessively high packet loss (which I traced to a problem somewhere within LL's ISP) must be addressed ASAP.

Yeh, this may be Yet Another Sim Crossing Issue. I've found places where my plane vanishes except for the root prim in the pilot seat, and there are spots where you'll see five or six abandoned planes near a sim border.

You may also have been hit by a security script that "unsits" you before giving you a warning.

As I have noted recently in the blog, all the occasions on which my flyer was destroyed by a full parcel occurred at sim crossings and usually under high lag conditions. I am not sure what all goes on in the background as sims pass the whole collection of prims that constitute a vehicle and its pilot to each other, but if in the course of the process, the pilot and their vehicle are technically separated, that might go a long way toward explaining why the full parcel derezzes the vehicle (and traps the pilot in a sit freeze--another parallel with banned parcels)

blog?

For all it's worth.. I think flying in SL is very important .. a big part of the experience and something that would attract a lot of people.