If AgePlay Is Being Restricted, So Should Gambling...

"All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players:" That shakespeare guy

On the gambling side the "Its just a game" approach wont last. In fact legal casinos are overseen by a "gaming bureau"

Pan- million L$ bets? yeesh... obviously it's been a while since I've been in an SL casino!



Sorry, I was responding to the below messages in like font
(That I picked football as well was coincidental. )



Originally Posted by Tone DeFarge
Why even bother talking about this? Everyone has there own opinions about things that they like or dislike. But honestly, secondlife is just a GAME, what makes you think video games that you find on 360 and such have?

Originally Posted by Draco18s Majestic (in reply to Tone):
Excuse me for interupting, but...
SECOND LIFE IS NOT A GAME!!

Yea, it was pretty crazy. Go by the "high roller poker rooms" and you'll see it a lot. They had millions of L$ on the table. The average pot was about 50kL$ each hand with about 8 people around the table. They had another table next to it with lower "blinds" but even on them the average pot was about 2kL$ each hand. So, we are talking major real world money here. 50kL$ is about $187USD, and that was average pot for each hand on the main table. They're probably losing their college funds, heh.

Hypocritical religious beliefs are highly offensive to me as it is prohibited by my religion. As per Saudi Arabia's "Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice" expression of diverse religious beliefs are illegal for all Saudis and anyone in Saudi Arabia. Following the OPs logic, I want the OP's religious beliefs banned from Second Life, or at least to fall under the same new rules and regulations as Age Play!

A person that has a child avatar and playing in a day care or with their mommy is playing child.

A person that has sex with a child avatar is a pedophile.
(there were plenty of sites in SL where you have sex with a child avatar) that is what Linden was going after).

Pedophile is not legal in California where SL is.
Pedophile is illegal in all countries.
No If Ands Or Buts.

Somehow it does not surprise me that a religious person who complains about gambling has no problem with pedophile!

No government recognizes $L as anything but “play money” there might be places where you can exchanged it for real money but that does not make it real money. It is a token at the most. You can gamble for tokens and go off site and exchange them for real money and it is not gambling. Second Life gambling is not on line gambling, until $L have become a real currency, (which is not likely to happen). SL gambling is not illegal! If it was ment to be then they would have added it in the law. But that would have made all on line token gambling illegal!

This play money in SL will be dealt with eventually by the US congress. But there are many arguments to keep $L play money. So it is not likely to change.

Any money you make in SL and convert to real money is Income and has to be reported to the IRS on your tax forms, if it is over a certain amount, (which eludes me at the moment). Sales tax is another matter. Since the “goods” in SL are virtual I doubt it will ever be taxable. You can not take them out except, scripts so the states are out of luck collecting tax from SL sales.

You may not like gambling but some people do and it puts lots of money in SL money that you benefit from whether you like it or not.. I do not like religion but do not propose it should be banned in SL.

PS in California there is a use tax on the CA tax form. If you purchase a taxable product out of the state(including internet) you are suppose to report it in this form and pay sales tax. No one does this but it is there. I talked to my CPA about this so do not disagree with me.

Yes of course.


No Your honor, sorry. Wishfull thoughts but you can't condemn someone or something when no one is really hurt.

Well it doesn't mean much since your second statement is incorrect.

ZOMG yet another person chiming in without reading the thread first...

For the third or fourth time, I do NOT condone sexual ageplay and I find it to be gross.

The argument here has nothing to do with real world pedophilia; it has everything to do with a real world law which was passed which makes it ILLEGAL to partake in virtual sexual ageplay inside Dutch borders. If you are Dutch, and you role-play sexual ageplay in SL with another consenting adult, it is now illegal and you can go to real life prison. Linden Labs has cited this new law as being the main reason they have now restricted ageplay in SL. Because of that, if sexual ageplay is being restricted in SL because it is now illegal in a real world country, gambling should also be restricted as it is not only illegal in a good number of real world countries, but it is illegal inside the one country LL is headquartered and where they have their physical servers, the USA.

The L$ does not need to be any kind of official currency to make it illegal to be gambled with, it ONLY needs to be something of “value.” As we look at the LindeX right now, I can see that people value the L$ at about 266L$ per one USD$. There is a market for L$, there is demand and thus there is value.

I mean really, even the CFO of LL says the L$ has value:
Quote from CNN interview: "John Zdanowski: The Lindex basically facilitates placing value on the Linden in-world currency. There were a lot of other players doing it out there and we thought consolidating the volume in one place would reduce volatility and improve the tradability of the Linden."

Please please people read the freaking thread before posting here. I have repeated myself several times now.

*Grr, time for some semantic nitpicking*

"Child Molestation" is a crime. "Pedophilia" is an 'unnatural' attraction.

Saying "all pedophiles are child molesters" is like
saying that "all pro-lifers are abortion clinic bombers".

It's actions, not urges, that are criminal.

Please stop confusing the issue by using "Pedophile" as a synonym for "Child Molester".

If you mean "Child Molester" please just say so.


Somewhat more related to the problem with teens on the grid... I saw an interesting development today: Court strikes down Internet porn law

<-- Wrong thread.

Jospy interestingly enough I have a feeling that this act from 2006 regarding gambling will yet be over turned and sooner then some people think. Why in the hell is the government so interested what people do with their own money. Money they earned from going to work, having taxes taken out of their pay etc. Then you have all the BS going on right now with The Presidents Legal advisers (state's attorney i believe they are called or some such) that give the president legal advice. Also a side note Pan they are using the act from 2006 to try and circumvent a existing act which they have failed to overturn. Ill mind you they really cant make people subject to their own made up law without overturning the previous act.

Again one could argue that the act in 2006 states whatever but it hasnt overturned the wire act which to successfully apply the law to actual people using the sites they would need to do just that. Otherwise it just covers sports betting for the actual people using them and the sites themselves. They can try to prosecute people under this act but the question is can they successfully do it without it being held to violate current acts and standards that are currently in place. Which currently it does violate other things that are currently in effect which the supreme court told them cant be held to include online poker and games of chance. And the Supreme Court over rides the UJD in terms of what can be held as actual "law"

There are processes to actually make something into law and trying to circumvent that wont really go over to well. Claiming something is illegal and it actually being illegal are 2 different things. Just keep that in mind. Saying because A is wrong B should also be wrong isnt a valid argument either. There are lots of things considered illegal that are done in a virtual scape and deemed to be allowed gambling should be no exception to that. Only when you trade L out in USD does it become even in scope of something they could touch if the act was actually able to be upheld in court.

Ill note that the actions taken by the UJD were found to violate global laws regarding gambling.

Overturned? Wishful thinking Lina. Not going to happen. If anything, the laws against internet gambling will only get stronger. Gambling in SL by any US citizen is illegal. The old laws spelled out that gambling in the USA outside of a few special areas (Vegas, etc) was illegal unless you were gambling on state owned and operated horse racing, etc. There were some loop holes, etc. which came around when online internet gambling became popular. This new law fills those loopholes and spells out in clear and plain English that all forms of online gambling by any US citizen or the running of an online gambling operation by a US citizen is 100% illegal. It also made it illegal for banks to even transfer money to those gambling operations on behalf of a US citizen.

Oh, and there are TONS of online sports books/sports gambling going on in SL. Some are REALLY big operations owning whole islands.

As per this thread I now re-request that gambling in SL be banned, fazed out or at least restricted as it is illegal inside the USA. If sexual ageplay is being restricted in SL because it is now illegal to the Dutch, gambling should also be restricted as it is illegal inside the USA, where a large number of SL citizens reside. Not to mention Linden Labs itself is physically located inside the USA, as are their servers. Do the right thing LL, and begin to faze gambling out of SL before the law suites begin and banking operations like PayPal and MasterCard begin to deny payments to Second Life.

Thank you.

Pedophiles use that as an justification with to have sex with children willing under 18. It is still sick. You allow it sex with child avatars, in SL you are going to get pedophiles. Only a sick person wants to have sex with a child, even if that "child" is an adult in real life.

In the US sex with someone under 18 is rape, it is called statutory rape, but rape non the less. EVEN if the kid is willing! So support Pedophiles if you want and deny you are support them them is find with me. It will still not make it OK in the US.

I am sure things will change. I suspect that Linden will stop gambling in SL eventually, just to avoid the trouble if nothing else.

But $L are still "play money". The fact that some NUTS will pay you real money for it does not make it worth something and can classify $L an exchangeable fund.

Linden is not a on line gambling business, so what you do with your "pay Money" is your business. Like sell it on ebay!

If they do they anytime you buy chips and gamble or use tokens to gamble it will be considered gambling. Ever play Bingo in church!

FYI I do not gamble would not have gambling on my web sites and would not have gambling on my SL property (when I get some).

But if people want to gamble it is up to them.

In the RL an adult dressup as a child. He/she is still an adult. What adults do privately is their business.

In SL age play is an adult in a child avatar. Another person pretending to have sex with a child picture/avatar is sick and pedophile and not legal.

I am surprised Linden ever allowed it.

So when an adult in SL is wearing (cause lets face it in sl a skin or body shape is merely clothing) a child avatar he isn't an adult anymore? A fail to see logic there.

Do you think a Normal male looking at his personification on the computer, getting a vicarious thrill while “he” is having sex with a child is not a pedophile?

Anyone having sex with a child is sick. What he sees is a child avatar not the person behind the computer.

If you do not see that (or the logic) then I suspect you have suppressed pedophile feelings. No wonder you do not get my point! I knew France was open with sex but this is not acceptable.


PS a adult avatar in child clothes is different. That is not what we are talking about. Unless you are not aware there are child avatars. (I have a little red ridding hood.)

There is or was sites in SL were child avatars have sex with other child avatars. I have seen them and did report one to Linden. Then a week later came the ban. I suspect I was not the only one that complained.

Lina- Regarding the online gambling being overturned... I'm doubtful.

I think gambling is restricted, legally, for two reasons:

1) Anytime money changes hands, the government wants in on the action. Period. Sales, income, gambling, utilities, ... they want their cut.

2) "You robbed me!" said the gambler, "You're just unlucky!" said the casino operator. When these conflicts go to court showing that the operator is running crooked games may be difficult. Far more simple to just say "all gambling is illegal" to keep these kinds of time and money wasting cases from further clogging up our courts.

Pan- I don't think it's as simple as "SAP is banned because there's a law against it in the Netherlands." SAP has been banned because LL decided to ban it. One of the factors in that decision was the law specifically making virtual portrayal of sex with minors a crime. Maybe it's a leading factor... maybe it's more of a marketing decision. We'll never know for sure. The factors affecting tolerance or banning of in-SL gambling are clearly based on different criteria.

Casandra- "Another person pretending to have sex with a child picture/avatar is sick and pedophile and not legal. I am surprised Linden ever allowed it."

Be fair... would you have anticipated this issue beforehand?

Furthermore, distastful though it may be... SAP is not illegal in the U.S, at least not today.

Making stuff up (or lying) gives your opposition an easy way to show you wrong, and it discredits the point you're attempting to defend.

There are a lot of holes in your argument, any of which could be used rip what you said to shreds. I see emotional heartfelt opinions here... I'm not seeing logic, please don't call it that.

But, as someone pointed out above when they said "wrong thread"... this is about whether banning SAP is sufficient grounds for LL to ban gambling in SL.

I won't go any further off-topic with you on this issue. And hope others resist the urge to tear apart your argument... not in defense of pedophiles, as you rudely imply that anyone that disagrees with you must be... but for the sake of correcting your semantics and logic.

Alot of people are pedophiles in fact I'd say to a degree most people are. Its a human urge at times thats not considered Normal in this day and age and used to be perfectly acceptable. There is a huge difference between a pedophile and a child molester. A pedophile simply has urges to have sex with someone prepubscent meaning under the age of 13 in most cases or that they havent hit puberty yet (some people have diseases that prevents them looking their age end up looking like teens for life or young girls...) Pedophilia is an urge Child molestation is an act on that urge. Most people have the will to control their urges and dont let them get to far.

And actually your wrong there. Its not someone under the age of 18 in that sense...... If your 18 and have sex with someone 16 its legal not illegal. But again pedophilia covers people that haven't gone through puberty yet. Molesting a kid is wrong yes.. being attracted to someone under 18 is natural its a reaction of ones body but controlling that urge is what separates a pedophile and a child molester. Alot of people are attracted to minors and the media doesnt help when you have people like JoJo or britney spears when she was younger and alot of these young under 18 stars dressing in a very provocative manner.

I dont condone molestation by any degree but when you toss around pedophilia as being the same thing you are quite mistaken. And yes they see a child avatar but they know its an adult behind the keyboard there is a difference there from what you are getting at.... As i said while i dont condone it im not going to say pedophilia is directly wrong because of stuff out there to try and attract attention to people under 18 and the emphasis society puts on sex.

This thread isnt even about sexual age play its someone saying because age play is restricted that gambling should be. Someone that has little info on the law and people running around stating someone is in error that is in fact a lawyer. The law isnt broadened and the only thing debunking it at all is the word of a spokesperson who as stated earlier could be anyone at the UJD. Alot of stuff is wrong in real life that takes place in a virtual setting but its pushing it to get rid of something just because you dont like it being in that setting. The other response was that because L can be traded out into USD it directly has a value which isnt true. It is as the Linden's lawyer said. They dont guarantee that you can trade out your L$ they allow people to and have a service to do it.... but lindex could shut down tommorow and there isnt a thing anyone can do about it as you arnt garunteed the right to trade out.

People would still sell their L online ebay etc even if it wasnt allowed. Short just of it is while you can trade L for money it doesnt really have much of a value outside of SL. They tried to say if you even gamble with water you would be held to the law but you cant apply a law that widely period. If i did gamble with water and they tried to prosecute me for it i can pretty much guarantee you they'd be laughed out of court . Try to keep the thread on course in the future though please. I addressed it sheerly because you are mistaken in some areas of what you said. Im not ripping you to shreds or defending pedophilia or molestation im just stating plain and simple that there is a difference. Same as throwing around the term age play when people mean sexual age play....

Still the logic that because A is wrong B should also be wrong doesnt work in any argument whatever it is applied to. Because sexual age play is being restricted there for gambling should be restricted on grounds of an argument that has little backing it up other then a spokepersons word and someone stating they contacted lawyers doesnt really stand well as an argument. I find the argument a bit fruitless without a context of them actually prosecuting someone for it and without the law specifically stating such. There is the Wire Act which was never overturned by the act set down in 06 there is finding actions taken by the UJD to violate global law the year before there is the fact that the act in 06 tries an end run around the system to try and loop hole something they couldnt get overturned!

At the risk of adding fuel t this flamewar, I would urge everyon to take a look at Angel Fluffy's letter:

"If you quote this letter, I would ask that you reference it by the
most up to date url at http://pastebin.ca/391321 - that you use it to
encourage civil debate (not flames or drama)"

There is a definite need for reasonable debate on these issues, name calling does no good for anyone.

In the aspect of it getting overturned I to am doubtful im saying the act passed in 06 itself might end up not being so broadly applied. As I said a few times recently this act doesnt overturn the Wire Act which raises a problem currently...... Its just an end run of the system to try and broadly apply the wire act to more then it covers. Yes making it illegal for banks or financial institutions can be covered (which puts alot of places out of business) and using off shore places as well..... However the act of actually gambling without overturning the wire act cant really be covered in that light..... They tried to appeal the courts decision that the wire act only applied to sports betting and betting on contests sports boxing or whatever and were turned down by the highest court in these lands.

Trying to end run the system may work to scare some people but really on a legal premises its a corrupt part of the act that will end up having it looked at with more scrutiny in the near future of that i assure you. Again if i can give tokens to someone on a website where you simply gamble for tokens to buy little items for your characters i could turn around and sell said tokens on ebay and transfer the tokens to the person. Its not illegal to do such but it is against the TOS of most games.

Trying to find it illegal in that sense which is the same sense LL runs things however they dont make it agaisnt the TOS to sell your money. Your still gambling for something that has no legit real world value unless you yourself go out and sell it to someone. Which starts into a grey area where the law is stepping on toes of alot of stuff.

I made an earlier post concerning Angel’s Fluffy’s letter which I think set forth the problems and issues of “Ageplay”. Unfortunately we seem to be endlessly drawn into some sort of name calling exercise where some self righteous individual claims that this is all “pedophilia” or some such and to that person this label ends all possible consideration of any alternatives.

If this were actually true, then I doubt if there would be any debate! My problem is that this position is based on half truths and lies.

When dealing with half truths and propaganda one is inevitably led to the masters of that dark art: the Nazis. They wove a web of lies and deceit which has never been seen before or since. One of their favorite themes was “Jews Threaten your children”.

This was effective because every adult in the world instinctively feels a need to protect their children and far too often the ensuing panic attack causes the lies to be accepted without criticism.

"Jews threaten your children" has been a favorite anti-semitic theme throughout history.

One of the clearest examples of this form of distortion was the Nazi propaganda paper “Der Sturmer” which published the following on 1 May 1934. The English translation and a picture of the original front page is found at http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/stuermerskampf.htm .

Be forewarned that the original front page includes a revolting cartoon depicting this “secret ritual”.



This “secret ritual” is actually the Seder meal which introduces the Jewish Passover! Part of the ritual involves instructing an inquiring child in the basics of Judaism.

“Ageplay” as practiced on Second Life has about as much to do with the actual abuse of children as the Jewish Seder meal has to do with this “Ritual Murder”.

Can we move on from this and discuss the very real issues here – please?

Godwin's Law!

Lock the thread!

[added in edit:

'One of their favorite themes was “Jews Threaten your children”.' sounds so familiar. Where did I hear something like that recently? Oh yeah:

"Allowing children to be adopted by persons living in such [same gender] unions would actually mean doing violence to these children"

Teh Lagbeast will eat your children. Be afraid. Shop. Obey.
]