Bring back event support for events other then education

The way IRL this works is that you get 100 people through the door at bare minimum. The difference is that these 100 customers didn't used to actually get paid to come to see the theatre or participate in the class. IRL people pay for events content. In sl they don't because of the culture that has been created here. It is very very difficult to Uncreate a culture. Also, IRL one would have arts grants to apply for: some officiating body that can not only lend money to the arts or culture event (be it little league baseball, fishing tournaments, or arts events) but also lend credibility by virtue of the fact that a granting agency has said "this is NEA funded"or whatnot. In SL the only thing that makes this work at all is when we had the equivalent of that to pay hosts. I have worked this puppy the best way I can for as little cost as I can, doing 90% of the events myself. And they are good events! We got on the top 2% list in our first full month of operation. But even paying workers only modestly, we cannot make it break even unless we charge at the door and that means people will not come NOT because of the crappy job I do as an arts and culture maker, but because of the culture we live in where people are still paid to attend events and not the other way around.

We have done all we can to make this formula work according to what we CAN do in SL. There are huge differences between SL arts and culture and RL, and this tremendously hobbles us from doing events as a business that even breaks even! Trust that I know how to do events. I have an MFA in arts management and time spent in off and off off broadway theatre, and as an arts marketer. If you notice almost all of the standard events posters have left the scene or started doing nothing but gambling events. Only a very very few people remain doing other kinds of events. In a given day it is bingo tringo slingo bingo tringo slingo slots bingo tringo class bingo tringo slingo bingo tringo class bingo tringo bingo tringo sexy avie bingo tringo bingo tringo tringo bingo slots fishing bingo last call bingo slingo tringo.

Do you see the issue? Clubs have closed... notably the largest most successful ones. The reason isn't because it wasn't fun. The reason is because they couldn't afford to stay open any longer.

I tell you what. You try to run an events venue for a solid month. If you make it into the top 2% and still break even, I'll pay you for your secret to success. (as you indicate that we need to scratch dwell off the list, you reeeeely shouldn't be allowed to consider dwell as income, either, but i'm kind-hearted.) The truth of the matter is this: your theory argues in the face of facts. One of these facts is that I'm a damn fool for doing events at all and, like everyone else out there who does them, I may eventually come to the good sense that it isn't possible unless I want to subsidize LL's customers and entertainment for them. It is sad to see SL's events calendar become one continuous mass of gambling.

Actually, it's very easy. Culture which has no supportable way to exist usually dies out on its own. It sounds like this is exactly what is happening

The problem with this logic is that the grants you apply for are coming from circulated money which is either donated by charitable contributions, or cycled through taxes taken from the citizens. I do not want to be taxed to support your events.

If this is the case, then the culture should die out, and these events along with it. This is cultural and economic evolution. If people are not willing to pay for it, it will not survive. Again, I do not want to be taxed to provide for this.

Just because something is "fun" does not mean it is economically feasible. I could create a business in the real world giving away thousands of exotic and expensive cars to people who showed up. Would it be fun? You better believe it. Can it continue to exist with no revenue? Not a chance.

I don't want to run these events, I don't particularly want to run any events. If I were to run one, I would not hold it unless I could make it a balanced business model and ensure that I can provide adequate resources for the event and make sure that the event itself has enough revenue generation to support that fact. This should be done beforehand, and intelligently.

I agree it is sad to see the culture of SL die out, but the fact is that it's going to have to -- because it's the only way that the people who WANT these events will realize that they *HAVE* to pay if they want them to continue. There has to be some method of supporting them. Linden money-from-the-air subsidaries aren't sufficient, and they'd be a lot more irritated if everyone was taxed from their stipend/etc to support them.

We have many things in our communities that aren't businesses, Si. These include things like sewers, schools, and other infrastructure. For an entertainment company, events are infrastructure. It is part of the cost of doing business. This isn't a platform for anyone's particular political ideology is it? And if so, why only your ideology? Why not mine?

If there is nothing for people to do in game, the new folks who are joining at amazing rates will not stay for long. If we want SL to grow, and this seems to be in the interests of those who make actual income from SL, then having something for people to do while here is key. Countries spend money on infrastructure to spur economic activity. They prepare for the Olympics. They donate free advertisements for tourism. They subsidize industries with tax relief or even direct boons and grants. Robin Linden has said that she believes the Lindens took "too narrow" a view of events in SL. I wholeheartedly agree with her.

I am saying that this proposition to bring back events funding isn't only smart for folks in SL (those who need the support to keep offering events without paying out of pocket) but it is smart for SL itself. It is the necessary infrastructure (and not a very costly one overall) that will keep the community growing.

Clearly, your opinion is based on your own political ideology. You are willing, to preserve that ideology, si, to see all non-gambling events die out and even SL suffer if it needs to to preserve the idea that the only items of worth are proven worthy capitalistically and out of the pockets of consumers. This is a simplistic view that doesn't take into account the negative impacts the community as a whole have already encountered and continue to encounter due to short-sighted economic changes driven purely by ideology and theory.

My opinion is based on highly-specialized educational training, RL life experience as an arts administrator in a city where tourism is and entertainment are a major source of the city's income (similarly to SL), and proven experience as an SL events host, venue owner and 3D content creator and marketer. Facts tell us that SL events culture is dying and it will be dead if something doesn't happen soon to save it. I encourage everyone to vote for some renewed funding for events.

We don't care about prize monies at the spa. If people can be paid to host, I will divvy up my dwell payments for modest prizes (foregoing my own in-game income, unless I also host) or get donations from interested businesses. But without SOME way to pay events hosts, the events calendar isn't going to get any more diverse. It will be gambling and nothing but because that pays for itself.

Sewers, schools, and other infrastructure are all handled by committees and boards which make decisions such as a business management. The government itself is essentially a very large business. They all must work to keep their budgets in check. Here (Missouri), the sewers are actually run by a business, as is trash, and water, gas, electric. There are many private schools which are run as businesses (in fact, you'll find almost all of the prestigious colleges in this nation are just such).


I agree, events are viewed too narrow. Which is why we're left with nothing but a bunch of "here's a DJ, here's a club, come be social" events. They aren't creative, there's millions of them, and there's plenty of ways to do this and spend US$0, as well as L$0 and do it well. If you need some pointers, talk to many of the people who host these events with no cost.
I would love to see more creative events, and I think there is a good market for it -- even a market that people would be willing to pay for. I don't think the problem here is Linden sponsorship, I think the problem here is the creativeness of event holders


Last I heard, Linden Lab actually employed people specifically to help manage a proper economy in the world, there were some posts about this a while back, I think there was someone with a PhD in economics who helps keep the economy in line. I don't think it's fair to say the economic outlook of SL is short-sighted at all.


As an administrator of such, and with experience in this, you must know that if you continue to lose money, these venues will shut down, and the services will cease to exist. They are supported by taxes, which are paid by local businesses who draw revenue from the tourism that results from the events. That is the missing piece here. Having Linden Lab create money and hand it out does not solve this problem.



Ok, I don't think i've done enough of a job explaning this, because you still seem to think that Linden Labs creating money to hand out to pay for this will fix the problem. Here is the economic problem with that.

Every L$ that is created by LL devalues the L$. If LL creates this money to hand out to events to support them, it will continuously devalue the L$.

Not a problem you say? Who cares about the SL economy? The culture must thrive?

As the L$ devalues, the amount you will need to pay your hosts, workers, prize manufacturers goes up. It will be a continually degrading cycle. It will start off fine, then the L$ devalues from it, the amount you're now paying the hosts is meaningless, and has the same effect as paying them less now would.

OK, so LL raises the amount they give out for events. This just perpetuates the cycle, you end up with a L$ worth nothing at all.

Do you see the problem with this logic? I'm all for LL supporting events, I just don't think handing out L$ is the way to do it. I think it would be great if they set up a fund that businessess/individuals can donate to sponsor events, or if LL provides content for "prizes", etc. Anything of that nature is fine, but what this suggestion is trying to do will continually weaken the economy until it is broken beyond repair. It's a bad way to go about what you're trying to accomplish.

In a RL economy, we do not have only the money that we started with for all eternity. The government mints money to replace money that has been lost due to attrition, if nothing else. (In SL monetary attrition might result when people leave the game with dough or assets still in their accounts).

I'd be more worried about the government minting money for sale than the government minting money for a dozen people to run an event every day. This impact could be minimized by A) not reinstating prize monies (let events hosts find sponsorships for those). B) limiting Events Host Monies to $250/day for event hosting time of a minimum of onehour. C) requiring events hosts to file applications and reports as they did before (which effectively kept many people from seeking the funds).

This means that only 1/3 of the monies would be reinstated. The economic impact of this will be far far less than the economic impact of ratings monies. The economic impact of having a dying events culture would be harshest of all (fleeing new customers, stagnated growth, cognitive dissonance among consumers at an all-time high).

With limitations, it's possible -- however, I think stipends already create a positive influx even with contrast to those leaving the game with money. If they had a way to make sure this balance was maintained, it would be fine -- but the problem with the idea as posted is that one could make 1000 alt accounts and do an event with each. Go back and read the initial request of this, you'll see the problems there with it.

If LL were to take numbers for players leaving and their moneys away and redistributed to fund events, i'm all for that.

I think that in the absence of event support, the people who previously would have hosted an event on their own land are now having to host at venues where they can be paid for doing it. All removing event support seems to have done is force people who want to host events for their SL "living" to work for people who have the RL money to keep a club venture afloat.

This seems to get rid of any notion that SL is somehow a more level playing field than SL. I'd always naively assumed that event support was a philanthropic gesture by Linden to help keep SL a level playing field and to make it available to those of us without a great deal of RL cash to spare.

Maybe an increase in traffic payments or some kind of limited event support for people running events on their own/group land could help relevel the playing field?

I will probably reget joining the drama, but here goes....

It seems like we are trying to make a one-size-fits-all events policy when perhaps different levels might be a better idea.

Many a newbie has relied on money balls and contests to put some more Lindens in their pocket, I was one of them once and know how it is. I also know that at some point, I started wanting higher priced items and it just made more sense to upgrade to a premium account at $6 a month (paying a year in advance) than to spend time chasing $$ in places that weren't providing me with any fun due to bad hosts and terrible music.

Now, at a premium membership level, I NEVER go to events because of a money ball. If I show up at a club or anyplace else, it is because of good people and great music.

So, why not have differing levels of activity? I think there are many club owners who could easily get away with charging a L$25 admission fee, just do it through your land tools for the hours of the event. Don't have any raffles, contests, money balls, etc... Just provide people with a great DJ and let them have a good time. Of course, this means you won't have any newbies or money hounds. The last event I was at, there was only 1 player there less than 2 months old. The rest of us didn't bother entering any raffles or contests because we weren't there for the money in the first place.

Let Travis and those who are specifically catering to the newbie market have some kind of event sporsorship, maybe limiting them to 2 sponsored events per day or a grand total of 6 per week in case they want to do all their business on the weekends. Clubs that might normally charge a fee for their premium events can still do newbie dances to introduce new people to their clubs.

Those of you hosts and club owners who have created a hot-spot, ask your people for a cover charge, even if it's only L$10, which they will win back from the money ball anyway. The top DJ's in SL have a fairly devoted following of people that will happily pay money to be wherever they are spinning, take advantage of that.

My final suggestion is that an event listing should be required to list a music format. Music sets the tone for the whole event, help the people who are looking for the type of entertainment you are providing, find you. Especially if you are going to do a cover charge, no one wants to pay $$ and then find out it's music format they hate. If you discover that only 3 people in SL will pay to listen to you spin {insert music format here} then you have learned something.

My whole point here is to start thinking outside the box, there are ways to make this work. Figure out who your audience is and start marketing appropriatly.

Sorry, I don't have time to read on this - just scanned it.

I want the events subsidies to come back. (And for the events calendar to be without the current restrictions.)

For my reasoning on this, see my comments in the "Events Discussion" forum under the threads (parapharased titles) "Stop Paying People to Come to Your Events" and "Stop Complaining."

In a nutshell, I offer just this one example: Club owners can't charge for drinks.

coco

TSO at one point had alot of money being piped in due to money making software ... was it wrong... umm yeah ... But, when the money stopped...so did the interest of a lot of players in that game....(that was when I moved to There.com) ... Where they paid for events when I arrived..... and soon they removed the hosting monies....And no money... means no events ..and Hey! So here I am in SL with the rest of the people who came over here where they were paying for hosting when I got here. Anyone else see the trend yet?
Second Life is still very viable and going strong, but I do think that Jenna Fairplay brought up some good arguments to the new players coming in the game... and If I have to think about when I came to Second LIfe and how many clubs there were and events .. and look at the list now.... Well, its not empty, but its not the same either.
The lack of money flow in these games does have an effect..... the longterm effect is more of what I think Lindens need to be looking into....... what happens when all the established players start to fade out .. where will the money come from to pay for jobs in the game? ... Will there be any jobs and what will people use to shop with .. if they cant make any money? Just some questions to think about.... because honestly, I am not a financial guru .... I am just another MMORPG player ... who looks for a game that is fun... and like many others, when the fun is gone........... I may not be the first to move on, but you can bet I wont be the last.

every word you said is so true of second life ,running a small club myself things are tough we dont get paid at all, take the clubs away from second life and you wouldnt have a large base ofplayers anymore ppl only buy clothes to attend clubs and win some money and have fun

so come on second life please rethink this