Second Life Forums Archive - Make Sl ATI Friendly?

ksp Soyinka

Registered User

Join date: 19 Nov 2005

Posts: 30

02-18-2006 14:28

i run both ati and nvidia. all the ati cards i have used have always been really good for games and crap for proper 3d work. (i count SL under proper 3d cos of the amount of base prims it pushes around)

ziphren Moonflower

Future Full-Time Resident

Join date: 31 Oct 2003

Posts: 94

02-19-2006 10:50

From: Feynt Mistral

The issue is the graphical optimization. If there was a way to set an object as a static land ornament, the servers could crunch the numbers and come up with a much more efficient design to send across the wires and instead of seeing a castle with roughly 400 prims (and anywhere from 12 (cubes, the most basic of prim) to 64 polygons per prim, perhaps more) you'd get a few server joined meshes which would speed up your frame rate greatly (being able to combine 8 cube prims that make up a long wall for instance would free up 48 polygons as they combine into one long block).

great idea.. how about doing that for "Locked" prims?

Morgaine Dinova

Active Carbon Unit

Join date: 25 Aug 2004

Posts: 968

Forget ATI for OpenGL

02-20-2006 10:52

From: Red Wallaby

well if that's the case i don't think i will be forking out £150 around $300 for a graphics card that does support open gl

I don't know why you think that nVidia cards are expensive. For each ATI card, there is an nVidia card at the same price point. It's been so for many generations of cards now. A fanless nVidia 5200 costs around $40, and a 6200 around $60. Both run SL perfectly.

And the difference between ATI and nVidia has always been the same when it comes to OpenGL --- namely, incomplete and flakey support from ATI, and complete and solid support from nVidia. This is almost certainly an intended business decision by ATI, as they've had half a decade to fix it, but haven't.

What's more, the problems with ATI will probably get even worse rather than better now, as a result of their ever closer ties with Microsoft in the Xbox 360. OpenGL is becoming of zero interest to ATI, their focus on Microsoft is now all-pervasive. Furthermore, since OpenGL is the "open" alternative to DirectX, they would annoy Microsoft if they started to support it better.

So really, forget ATI in future unless you want to focus on DirectX games and nothing else. Multi-platform 3D will always use OpenGL --- there really isn't any other choice.

_____________________

-- General Mousebutton API, proposal for interactive gaming
-- Mouselook camera continuity, basic UI camera improvements

Michael Martinez

Don't poke me!

Join date: 28 Jul 2004

Posts: 515

02-20-2006 11:38

I agree that ATI does not fully support opengl, but to shy away from it..well..

I have an ATI card, and play SL, and I am just fine, get 20+ fps, don't crash (except for that ripple water bug that effect both Nvidia and ATI, but that is fixed now) and getting 70 FPS is not unheard of in a low people area. I have all options on except shadows and local lighting.

So to say ATI is flaky, etc with opengl applications is just wrong..as I play SL, and other opengl games and have no issues.

I feel it is more to do with upkeep, if you plugged in your PC one or more years ago, and have done nothing to it (update driver, etc..as needed) then you will have issues as SL is a game that is changing and does use new features, etc...so if you leave you PC behind and expect to run games like SL, well, you will have problems with an ATI or Nvidia card.

Just my 2 cents... (1 and 1/2 in Canada).

_____________________

There are no significant bugs in our released software that any significant number of users want fixed. (Bill Gates)

Remy Goodliffe

Registered User

Join date: 27 Dec 2005

Posts: 1

02-20-2006 15:17

From: Shack Dougall

For ATI based laptops, drivers are the biggest issue. Manufacturers don't update their drivers and ATI won't release an official driver for OEM laptops.

So, if you don't have the latest drivers because you have a laptop and can't find them: Try http://www.omegadrivers.net. My wife's laptop simply wouldn't even run SL without these.

Omegadrivers huh? Never heard of it before but I'll give it a shot. I'm on an HP laptop. 2.8 ghz AMD Athlon 64. 100 gb HD. 1 gig ram. ATI MOBILITY RADEON Xpress 200 series. Like everyone else claims, my other games run like a dream. SL is the only nightmare I'm having at the moment. Hope omegadrivers helps and thanks.

--

Hehe, well, it helped a bit but...I'm still going at like 10 FPS. I know, horrible isnt it? That's how I've been playing SL for the past 3 months though. It doesn't bother me much, but I wish it would support my ATI video. Ah well. I could overclock it (according to the drivers) but I'm not really sure how, so I don't think i'll be messing with that.

Tamaria Vixen

Registered User

Join date: 23 May 2005

Posts: 26

05-16-2006 00:30

From: Feynt Mistral

Well here's the thing, OpenGL has better performance capabilities than DirectX. DirectX is just an attempt at a unified graphics library (and for the most part, it's succeeded). The stance in either direction makes a lot of sense but supporting both is costly and not financially sound:

Well...I hate to point this out...But I think everybody else figured it out already..

Most of the games I own have a little option asking if I want to use OpenGL or DirectX in the graphics settings. I'm skeptical that writing software for maximum compatability is not financially sound, especially given the wide array of very successful software that seems to be knee deep in what is being portrayed as some sort of coding pitfall.

Is it really that bad an idea just to consider as much of the market as possible? As a software developer, it seems to me that the financially unsound option would be to ignore huge portions of the market...Customers who are far more likely to just go play something else rather than go out and buy new hardware.

Lina Pussycat

Texture WizKid

Join date: 19 Jun 2005

Posts: 731

05-16-2006 08:52

ok to clear up a dispute here..... ATI cards have some open GL support its not as good as Nvidia's cards are as far as that. The fact is SL render to Open GL for cross platform related stuff and alot of other things. In terms of performance most cards in the genre are the same it varies as to what you test them on. If you test Nvidia stricktly on Direct X or run it on games that perform with direct X they are going to tone down alot. The same goes for ati and open gl. it all varies performance wise how the game render's mainly. SL works fine for ATI although those with agp on ati cant enact on the agp acceleration but thats about the only difference. I ran a geforce mx440 and with no option on and 512 mb of ram i got about 12-17 fps.

This card wouldnt allow most options it was a 128 mb card btw. Now recently my monitor went on me.... Died out hehe. Now the person that put together my computer (set it up originally) my brother that is busted the connection area on the monitor - card area . So i ended up having to buy a new card to just replace the monitor. Now i didnt feel like buying a new mother board or spending 300+ dollars on a card i wasnt gunna use that long as im building a new computer at the moment just waiting on some parts. So i spent the 180 some odd dollars and got a nvidia 6600 Agp edition 256 mb. My fps went up to about 30-35 occasionily hitting higher or lower and thats now with features on.

Now a friend of mine went out and has a 512 mb card ATI one. And has a lower FPS then me. This is due to inadequacies for Open GL on ati's side which really as i say all the time it depends what your going to plan on playing what you should get.

Laurana Newell

Registered User

Join date: 27 Jan 2006

Posts: 41

06-14-2006 22:09

i know i'm late, but here's my computer specs:

Enclosure: Antec Sonata II (with Antec SmartPower 2.0 SP-450 450W)
Board: Asus A8V-E SE
CPU: AMD Athlon64 3700+ Socket 939 2.2Ghz (with ThermalTake CL-P0200)
RAM: 1x1gb DDR400 (can upgrade up to 4x1gb)
HDD: Western Digital WD2000JS (SATA2, compatible AND being used in SATA1 mode since my board doesn't support SATA2)
Video: MSI Radeon X1300Pro 256mb PCIe (ATI chipset, using official ATI drivers)
on-board: audio (RealTek AC'97), network (Marvel Yukon 10/100/1000)

it would be great for SL to run better on ATI cards, and having a "PCIe" option we could check (like this AGP option the user can check if they use AGP card)

since the X1000 series have the Shaders 3.0 (Pixel and Vertex Shaders), it would be good, in future versions, to include an option to activate it.

Make Sl ATI Friendly?
ksp Soyinka Registered User Join date: 19 Nov 2005 Posts: 30	02-18-2006 14:28 i run both ati and nvidia. all the ati cards i have used have always been really good for games and crap for proper 3d work. (i count SL under proper 3d cos of the amount of base prims it pushes around)
ziphren Moonflower Future Full-Time Resident Join date: 31 Oct 2003 Posts: 94	02-19-2006 10:50 From: Feynt Mistral The issue is the graphical optimization. If there was a way to set an object as a static land ornament, the servers could crunch the numbers and come up with a much more efficient design to send across the wires and instead of seeing a castle with roughly 400 prims (and anywhere from 12 (cubes, the most basic of prim) to 64 polygons per prim, perhaps more) you'd get a few server joined meshes which would speed up your frame rate greatly (being able to combine 8 cube prims that make up a long wall for instance would free up 48 polygons as they combine into one long block). great idea.. how about doing that for "Locked" prims?
Morgaine Dinova Active Carbon Unit Join date: 25 Aug 2004 Posts: 968	Forget ATI for OpenGL 02-20-2006 10:52 From: Red Wallaby well if that's the case i don't think i will be forking out £150 around $300 for a graphics card that does support open gl I don't know why you think that nVidia cards are expensive. For each ATI card, there is an nVidia card at the same price point. It's been so for many generations of cards now. A fanless nVidia 5200 costs around $40, and a 6200 around $60. Both run SL perfectly. And the difference between ATI and nVidia has always been the same when it comes to OpenGL --- namely, incomplete and flakey support from ATI, and complete and solid support from nVidia. This is almost certainly an intended business decision by ATI, as they've had half a decade to fix it, but haven't. What's more, the problems with ATI will probably get even worse rather than better now, as a result of their ever closer ties with Microsoft in the Xbox 360. OpenGL is becoming of zero interest to ATI, their focus on Microsoft is now all-pervasive. Furthermore, since OpenGL is the "open" alternative to DirectX, they would annoy Microsoft if they started to support it better. So really, forget ATI in future unless you want to focus on DirectX games and nothing else. Multi-platform 3D will always use OpenGL --- there really isn't any other choice. _____________________ -- General Mousebutton API, proposal for interactive gaming -- Mouselook camera continuity, basic UI camera improvements
Michael Martinez Don't poke me! Join date: 28 Jul 2004 Posts: 515	02-20-2006 11:38 I agree that ATI does not fully support opengl, but to shy away from it..well.. I have an ATI card, and play SL, and I am just fine, get 20+ fps, don't crash (except for that ripple water bug that effect both Nvidia and ATI, but that is fixed now) and getting 70 FPS is not unheard of in a low people area. I have all options on except shadows and local lighting. So to say ATI is flaky, etc with opengl applications is just wrong..as I play SL, and other opengl games and have no issues. I feel it is more to do with upkeep, if you plugged in your PC one or more years ago, and have done nothing to it (update driver, etc..as needed) then you will have issues as SL is a game that is changing and does use new features, etc...so if you leave you PC behind and expect to run games like SL, well, you will have problems with an ATI or Nvidia card. Just my 2 cents... (1 and 1/2 in Canada). _____________________ There are no significant bugs in our released software that any significant number of users want fixed. (Bill Gates)
Remy Goodliffe Registered User Join date: 27 Dec 2005 Posts: 1	02-20-2006 15:17 From: Shack Dougall For ATI based laptops, drivers are the biggest issue. Manufacturers don't update their drivers and ATI won't release an official driver for OEM laptops. So, if you don't have the latest drivers because you have a laptop and can't find them: Try http://www.omegadrivers.net. My wife's laptop simply wouldn't even run SL without these. Omegadrivers huh? Never heard of it before but I'll give it a shot. I'm on an HP laptop. 2.8 ghz AMD Athlon 64. 100 gb HD. 1 gig ram. ATI MOBILITY RADEON Xpress 200 series. Like everyone else claims, my other games run like a dream. SL is the only nightmare I'm having at the moment. Hope omegadrivers helps and thanks. -- Hehe, well, it helped a bit but...I'm still going at like 10 FPS. I know, horrible isnt it? That's how I've been playing SL for the past 3 months though. It doesn't bother me much, but I wish it would support my ATI video. Ah well. I could overclock it (according to the drivers) but I'm not really sure how, so I don't think i'll be messing with that.
Tamaria Vixen Registered User Join date: 23 May 2005 Posts: 26	05-16-2006 00:30 From: Feynt Mistral Well here's the thing, OpenGL has better performance capabilities than DirectX. DirectX is just an attempt at a unified graphics library (and for the most part, it's succeeded). The stance in either direction makes a lot of sense but supporting both is costly and not financially sound: Well...I hate to point this out...But I think everybody else figured it out already.. Most of the games I own have a little option asking if I want to use OpenGL or DirectX in the graphics settings. I'm skeptical that writing software for maximum compatability is not financially sound, especially given the wide array of very successful software that seems to be knee deep in what is being portrayed as some sort of coding pitfall. Is it really that bad an idea just to consider as much of the market as possible? As a software developer, it seems to me that the financially unsound option would be to ignore huge portions of the market...Customers who are far more likely to just go play something else rather than go out and buy new hardware.
Lina Pussycat Texture WizKid Join date: 19 Jun 2005 Posts: 731	05-16-2006 08:52 ok to clear up a dispute here..... ATI cards have some open GL support its not as good as Nvidia's cards are as far as that. The fact is SL render to Open GL for cross platform related stuff and alot of other things. In terms of performance most cards in the genre are the same it varies as to what you test them on. If you test Nvidia stricktly on Direct X or run it on games that perform with direct X they are going to tone down alot. The same goes for ati and open gl. it all varies performance wise how the game render's mainly. SL works fine for ATI although those with agp on ati cant enact on the agp acceleration but thats about the only difference. I ran a geforce mx440 and with no option on and 512 mb of ram i got about 12-17 fps. This card wouldnt allow most options it was a 128 mb card btw. Now recently my monitor went on me.... Died out hehe. Now the person that put together my computer (set it up originally) my brother that is busted the connection area on the monitor - card area . So i ended up having to buy a new card to just replace the monitor. Now i didnt feel like buying a new mother board or spending 300+ dollars on a card i wasnt gunna use that long as im building a new computer at the moment just waiting on some parts. So i spent the 180 some odd dollars and got a nvidia 6600 Agp edition 256 mb. My fps went up to about 30-35 occasionily hitting higher or lower and thats now with features on. Now a friend of mine went out and has a 512 mb card ATI one. And has a lower FPS then me. This is due to inadequacies for Open GL on ati's side which really as i say all the time it depends what your going to plan on playing what you should get.
Laurana Newell Registered User Join date: 27 Jan 2006 Posts: 41	06-14-2006 22:09 i know i'm late, but here's my computer specs: Enclosure: Antec Sonata II (with Antec SmartPower 2.0 SP-450 450W) Board: Asus A8V-E SE CPU: AMD Athlon64 3700+ Socket 939 2.2Ghz (with ThermalTake CL-P0200) RAM: 1x1gb DDR400 (can upgrade up to 4x1gb) HDD: Western Digital WD2000JS (SATA2, compatible AND being used in SATA1 mode since my board doesn't support SATA2) Video: MSI Radeon X1300Pro 256mb PCIe (ATI chipset, using official ATI drivers) on-board: audio (RealTek AC'97), network (Marvel Yukon 10/100/1000) it would be great for SL to run better on ATI cards, and having a "PCIe" option we could check (like this AGP option the user can check if they use AGP card) since the X1000 series have the Shaders 3.0 (Pixel and Vertex Shaders), it would be good, in future versions, to include an option to activate it.

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Make Sl ATI Friendly?