Smell of greed from sl

I just read, new players coming in with basic accounts will no longer receive the measly 250L they get now. I mean 250L is nothing as it is but it's a little something to get the players started.
Linden seems intend on taking everything from its players so they are obligated to buy Lindens to keep going in sl.
From what I was told, they drastically cut the money from events or places where people gathered and will completely take it all out very soon.
Again, why? What's the purpose in doing all of this? Other then to get people to buy Lindens from them. The old lame reason of the economy being hurt is a load of crap. With the meager amount they give to new players or to other shops, clubs or what-have-you, this is not hurting anything or anyone but the people who benefit from these small amounts. I mean they now barely give anything as it is.
This all has the lousy smell of greed on behalf of the company running sl.

I suggest they re-think these dumb ideas and help the people, especially the new ones coming in for the first time. Without any money what are they going to do to get started?

I have this thought about LL sometimes. Don't worry KP, someday you'll get over that hump

I posted a topic on this in land and the economy, and no doubt there are many more. I'd really like a statement from LL as to what they're playing at, focusing too much on economics will kill the game, there are ways to stabilise the economy without removing everything that makes this a game, such as basic incomes and dwell, which keep free places alive, and without them SL isn't as fun and exciting as it used to be.

Not to sound like a broken record, but the few clubs and other free places that I liked are gone now, because dwell and my contributions no longer keeps them afloat.

While I don't agree that greed is the culprit, I too lament the ongoing loss of cool non-commercial sites. And I concur that the loss of dwell and stipends will make non-commercial and non-profit sites upkeep from within the game dubious.

While I try to be open minded, I'm not really interested in living in a word that's 99% dance clubs, casinos, and shopping malls.

Of course some say that SL isn't a game, and that if you want to support a shelter/library/temple/park/non-profit/etc, then you should be willing to pony up RL$ to do so. Which I propose all us "free account" "free loaders do".

I propose a change (back?) from free accounts to 'basic' accounts, with a fee of $1 or $2 per month, paid yearly (to reduce processing fees), with something like 50% of that going to dwell, and 50% as a "stipend" (at the current $L value). Or even 25% to stipend and 25% straight to LLabs if it will help keep the lights on.

This provides *something* for dwell and something for "stipends" (which should wet the appetite for spending or supporting your favorite non-profit), without taking more money out of LL's pockets - and perhaps even putting something back in.

This also addresses the ongoing losses LL incurs from all legacy free accounts. Suddenly it may not be worthwhile to keep 5 or 10 or 15 alternate accounts to simply accumulate legacy stipends. Although perhaps alternate avatars could be available for a 25-50% reduction in *both* yearly cost *and* "stipend".

Optionally the 'stipend' could be a lump sum deposited after your payment processes. This would certainly reduce the computational requirements each Tuesday.

The above assumes that most players would be willing to pay $12 or $24 a year to play, which I certainly would if I get (to keep) cool non-commercial places to go, and *some* money to spend.

It also assumes that non-commercial and non-profit sites benefit from dwell... which, while indicated by site owners that are shutting down, I have yet to find a breakdown of dwell payments by economic activity type.

I also don’t know how many free accounts exist that are still eligible for stipends. Actually a breakdown of "free with stipend", "new free without stipend", and "premium" customer counts would be a nice addition to the statistics page.

Sorry for the long ramble, I’m passionate, perhaps not clear, and certainly not concise. My sincere hope in writing all this, is that *someone* will find a way to keep the SL world from becoming an urban sprawl of big box $L sinks... so to speak.

Respectfully, Vertex Zenith

Hmmmm ... english is not my first language, but even after checking the dictionary I find this post hard to comprehend.

A company (Linden Lab) is giving away a service (Second Life) for free. This company refuses to add more free goodies on top. This is called "greed"?

Yep. And something must be done.
(No, not another socialism / capitalism thread, just self and group interest combined).

I for one insist (okay, more like politely request that they consider) the changing of all free account to 'cheap' accounts so as to better compensate Linden Labs for their services.

And if we can create dwell (and/or some kind of stipend or lump sum payment) from a part of this revenue stream, then great.

And as an added bonus we'll vastly reduce the number of griefers if we charge some small fee.

We'll also be able to do far better age checking (than providing a cell phone number and/or email address???) to keep minors out of the adult SL.

And as far as "trying before buying", why not make help island (an easy, contained area to patrol) free, or some other contained area, but then charge the $12-$24 to leave it.

So please... Linden Labs... charge us all *some* amount per year... if only to keep out griefers and minors. And if you can, kick some of it back as dwell (or even tax relief and/or a foundation for non-profits and the arts).

Thank you for your consideration.

Sincerely, Vertex Zenith

While I don't agree that greed is the culprit, I too lament the ongoing loss of cool non-commercial sites. And I concur that the loss of dwell and stipends will make non-commercial and non-profit sites upkeep from within the game dubious.

While I try to be open minded, I'm not really interested in living in a word that's 99% dance clubs, casinos, and shopping malls.

Of course some say that SL isn't a game, and that if you want to support a shelter/library/temple/park/non-profit/etc, then you should be willing to pony up RL$ to do so. Which I propose all us "free account" "free loaders do".

I propose a change (back?) from free accounts to 'basic' accounts, with a fee of $1 or $2 per month, paid yearly (to reduce processing fees), with something like 50% of that going to dwell, and 50% as a "stipend" (at the current $L value). Or even 25% to stipend and 25% straight to LLabs if it will help keep the lights on.

This provides *something* for dwell and something for "stipends" (which should wet the appetite for spending or supporting your favorite non-profit), without taking more money out of LL's pockets - and perhaps even putting something back in.

This also addresses the ongoing losses LL incurs from all legacy free accounts. Suddenly it may not be worthwhile to keep 5 or 10 or 15 alternate accounts to simply accumulate legacy stipends. Although perhaps alternate avatars could be available for a 25-50% reduction in *both* yearly cost *and* "stipend".

Optionally the 'stipend' could be a lump sum deposited after your payment processes. This would certainly reduce the computational requirements each Tuesday.

The above assumes that most players would be willing to pay $12 or $24 a year to play, which I certainly would if I get (to keep) cool non-commercial places to go, and *some* money to spend.

It also assumes that non-commercial and non-profit sites benefit from dwell... which, while indicated by site owners that are shutting down, I have yet to find a breakdown of dwell payments by economic activity type.

I also don’t know how many free accounts exist that are still eligible for stipends. Actually a breakdown of "free with stipend", "new free without stipend", and "premium" customer counts would be a nice addition to the statistics page.

Sorry for the long ramble, I’m passionate, perhaps not clear, and certainly not concise. My sincere hope in writing all this, is that *someone* will find a way to keep the SL world from becoming an urban sprawl of big box $L sinks... so to speak.

Respectfully, Vertex Zenith



Last edited by Vertex Zenith : Today at 12:47 AM.
Reason: added the first 9 words and to moved to correct spot in thread. Sorry.

Actually Vertex, I remember seeing somewhere an idea for an account between basic and premium? Would that suit? Basic accounts remain with a free trial and one off fee if you wish to continue playing for free without a stipend.
To discourage griefers, the 'free period' would actually still charge $10 or whatever, but if you choose to give up after the free period, you get the money back, otherwise it is kept and you get to keep playing. If you do something against the ToS in that time, the $10 is forfeit.

But if you would like a stipend, then you can pay for this 'middle' account, which would be as you say, only $1 or $2 a month but have an income like premium accounts, just not as high, and without the land priviledges.

I've always thought the smell of greed would be like a prime rib steak, with a side of garlic mashed potatoes and some spicy Dijon mustard.

I'll take my greed medium-rare.

I wouldn't necessarily say it's greed, but I do wonder why they focus more on the economy than on social aspects. Problem I saw with dwell being killed: a lot of clubs drew people with cool contests that had cash prizes. Some of that came from donations, sure, but some also came from dwell. Kinda feels like a game of monopoly now when I read the forums, so I'm just hoping that doesn't start to translate in-world. I've already heard of a few places shutting down though.

On the other hand, I do understand some people's concerns about the value of the linden dollar going down - mainly because a friend of mine was raising linden dollars in order to pay for his land, since he doesn't really have much RL money. He's been forced to sell it now. So I guess I can see a little of both sides. But taking away the initial bonus from newbies seems a bit harsh... I mean, I was lucky to have been brought in by friends who lent me some money until I learned my way around. But not everyone has that.

Well $250L by itself isn't a huge amount of money, but given the massive growth of the population in SL that $250L becomes a rather large figure fast. If current projections are accurate to be at 1 million users by the end of the calendar year that 250L becomes $187,500,000L which translates to US$568,182.12 at current trade values. These figures are based on the possibility of 750,000 users being added to the current 250,000 user base. That fastly becomes alot of money considering that would only cover from July - December of this year. So you think that Linden Lab should perhaps give out a million dollars per year just in the $250L per new account?

Its not greed that is motivating Linden Lab -- its reality and scalability. In a recent article, Philip even stated that they are just now starting to be a profitable company. Would you rather have Second Life be a solid company with a solid product or would you rather they run themselves into the ground by giving away money to everyone who uses their product. Preferably, I would like Linden Lab to stick around because I really love Second Life and am willing to shell out money when I need to in lieu of handouts.

-Jennyfur

" In a recent article, Philip even stated that they are just now starting to be a profitable company."

Hey Jennyfur, that sounds like awesome news! You wouldn't happen to know which website/magazine he said that in?

Residents Logged-In During Last 60 Days
117,858

This number is right off of the statistic page. I wonder how many of these were people who loged on a few times and quit, alt accounts and griefer accounts. What is the amount of real stable residents? The amount paid in stipends has to be wrong or a real problem is in progress!

Thus what you said about 1M residents is just wrong.

I think it was the one on scalabilty I saw on CNET the other day. I don't have a link to it, but I think there are a couple of threads floating around on it.

117,858 may be the amount of residents who logged in during the last 60 days, but there are still in fact 250,000 accounts regardless of how many are alts or belong to people who quit. All projections from Linden Lab are pointing towards a million users by the end of the calendar year. This is what I am basing my figures on.

I'm not talking about weeklystipends. This thread is talking about the $250L you get when you create a new user account and LL no longer doing this. So, in theory if 750,000 more accounts open before the years end regardless of whether they are alts or quit soon after they still will be granted the $250L handout when they are created. WHile $250L is a small amount in and of itself when you multiple that with the projected population growth it becomes and unsustainable feature.

So, I am not "just wrong" as you put it. We are talking about two different things.

-Jennyfur

I just think that Linden Labs is wrong about the One million active accounts. You are probally correct about the L$250 of course wonder how many of them spent it before quiting? My RL friends took one look at Second Life and quit. I do not think they even spent any Lindens.
Understand why it was stopped when getting a SL account is as easy as getting a Hotmail account. Yes, I understand what you are saying.........

L$250 is a huge amount of money to a first time user.



Which is not a useful projection because the trade values after such a large injection of L$ would be completely different.



LL do not sell L$ at the moment, and it's not clear how they'll manage it when they do. As I've mentioned elsewhere I doubt they'll be able to use it to pay their corporate expenses, because those expenses will not obligingly disappear in months where LL decide that the SL economy does not need any extra L$ added.

I do not agree with making the Basic Accounts again. That was the reason I never tried Second Life earlier than I did. I'm on a free account, simply because I don't have that much money to spare. I think Second Life, as 'real world' as it can be, should still have the option of being a game that you can enjoy without a credit card. You can't complain about greed, then say LL should charge for all accounts.
I also see the problem with people making accounts, never using their money etc. Maybe, what could work is a system sort of like how LL pays instructors. You send them a notification when you have completed a class, so what if newbies start with 0L$, but after one week, can email LL for their spending money. Maybe once a month they can send in a request and get 500L$ or something like that, so only active players get it, and no one has to pay just because they want to goof around for a little while.
You may think a couple bucks a month is peanuts, just suck it up and pay, but for some people it's just not an attractive option, either because using credit cards for game they haven't tried is uncomfortable, or because they just don't have the cashflow to spare.

L$250 is less than one US dollar which in my opinion is barely noticeable. I lose more pocket change in my house and to rogue soda machines worth much more than that.

Of course the trade values fluctuate, I was merely pointing out how L$250 adds up on a large scale projection. Whether we hit a million users by the end of December or by February is irrelevant because at some point in time barring any global cataclysm Second Life *will* have one million users.

LL may not sell L$, but all transactions figure into the economy in a variance of ways. The bottom line is that LL cannot afford to keep giving out in essence "free money" i.e. stippends, ratings bonuses, dwell etc. It is not feasible in their preparation for making SL wholly scalable for the rapidly rising growth population.

-Jennyfur

Two observations:

1) I have observed LL decisions that seem to better serve corporate profitability than client interests. However, that said...
2) I'm not sure I'd call it "greed".... yet.

I had not heard of cutting the L250 stipend (perhaps they are and I'm just not up on it). I have heard they have already cut the L50/week stipend for new freebie users (existing freebie users still get L50/week... apparently to soothe the rabid masses--lol).

I tend to agree with Vertex who said:

This all sounds very sensible to me. Consider this option:

New users log into Second Life free of charge. They are limited to eight "Welcome" sims with a variety of activities. One is a sandbox. One is a gaming area. One is for beauty. One is for merchanting. One is a battlezone. One is for chat/dancing/etc. Basically, kind of a nice overview of Second Life.

They can play there as long as they want. They can build only in the Sandbox. They can use weapons only in the battle zone. They're given an initial L1000 to spend... but the items they can purchase are basically standard "freebie" items (which can be donated by SL merchants specifically for that purpose) and the L$ goes right back into LL sink. These users cannot leave that 8-sim grid unless they pay a membership fee of say, $12 a year (a buck a month? Who can't afford that?).

Once they pay their $12, they transfer to the main grid. They are given L1000 to start with (as part of their basic membership) and a L50 / week stipend.

Existing paid users would have the ability to visit the "Welcome Grid" at will (as we do now with Ahern). That would allow them to help newbies (one of LL's greatest assets is enthusiastic, friendly members who like to help others).

As Vertex pointed out, this would greatly discourage griefers from setting up alts ($12 to grief? Not many would be willing). They won't be able to grief in Welcome grids because their abilities will be limited there (and what griefing they might accomplish will be kept away from Primary Grid).

If people don't want to pay to play... they can play in Welcome grid forever. No problem. Enjoy. Welcome new members for us. Glad to have you. Or alternately, they can play in the Welcome grid for 30 days and are then deleted to make room for new players. Either option might be viable.

But if they want to attend events and parties and all that other stuff... they have to be willing to fork over a dollar a month. And if they want to own land, they have to go Premium (which at less than $10 a month is still a pretty good deal all around for a hobby).

Seems like Vertex has recommended a very sensible business solution. These additional concepts hopefully solidify his concepts into a workable plan that LL would consider for implementation.

The only "downside" I can foresee: how many new users can exist on 8 sims? That would of course need to be balanced. Maybe a 20 sim matrix would be needed. I know I for one would love the opportunity to build an Elven "Welcome sim" for the purpose of assisting newbies.

now this is a good idea. even a one time payment would do, plus LL could make each free account self delete if the user is not active. also give each person on the welcome grid have like 2000L$ that can only be spent there and cannot be tranfered, that way new people can get a feel for how much things should cost (speaking as a semi-new person) i had no idea how much certian things should cost and i ended up spending all my money on something that should cost only like 10L$. also make all of the starting money dissipear when the person leaves the area. that way new accounts can get a feel for the real economy of SL plus the actual feel of the social part.

Yeah, that's even better. Allow some volunteer merchants to "sell" some things on SL so people do get that feel... then when they transfer to the main grid, all L$ and inventory clears and they start at new base. That would probably work well.

yeah, that sounds like a great idea. let's get 8 sims, and pack it full of about 50,000 people. a 3d game that runs at 0.25 fps is a great way to get people interested enough in SL to pay for it.

and why do you people keep talking about how much the L$250 initial payment costs LL? just because L$ can be converted to real money, you think that LL is actually "losing" a dollar when a person signs up for a free account and get L$250?! you keep saying that if a million people are getting a L$50 stipend per week, LL is going to have to find a way to recoup half a million dollars a month.... that is retarded. the only thing LL has to worry about is not saturating the market with money, causing inflation to go sky high and causing people to lose faith in the value of the L$, because then people will leave LL (thereby depriving LL of monthly fees), and people will stop selling their L$ for real money (thereby depriving LL of the transaction fees). when LL gives L$250 to a newbie, their bank account is not at all affected. this is not about greed, this is LL's attempt to balance SL's economy. I'm not saying it's the best way to do it, but it's also not directly making LL any extra money.

I'm not sure. If I signed up now I don't know if I would keep playing as I wouldn't be able to afford anything at all and probably quit. I do think it could work, but the newbie experience needs to be a lot friendlier or anyone without friends already in SL will find it tough going,.

When I started I went premium after my trial expired so I would have enough spending money.

I went to Active Worlds and only signed in twice. My Avatar was UGLY! I did not like the movement system and had no inventory. Who knows it might be an ok system but they turned me off with messages about paying money before I had a chance to experience it. Linden Labs could be doing the same to the newbies.