Gender vs. Biological Sex

I find this whole post offensive. Your language is entirely unecessary and your depicting of this problem as something that only "unatural" people care about is outrageous.

To comment on the issue as a whole however, IMO you are right that the issue is really about custom animations for default characters.

As a larger female avitar, none of the default animations work well for me.

I can't sit properly, I put my hands right through my hips all the times and many other things. If one deviates from Barbie or Ken when making the avitar all the default behaviours "break" in this way and most of the clothes dont fit. Both the game and the clothes desingners expect girl avis to be slight, small, and doll-like.

The key to this problem and others is to let us edit or add/subtract default animatios for the avis. Wehnthis is done, all the issues above will vanish.

Actually, since I'm skinny in RL, I have a fairly skinny av, and the animations don't work right for me, either. My hands are very often going through my hips. I just try to pretend I've got 'em in my pockets. (I wear ordinary jeans with pockets, so this is at least plausible.) And the sit poses look silly on everyone. I agree that the designers don't seem to have given a lot of thought to folks who want to look like ordinary RL people -- a glance at the default clothing inventory tells you that.

I wonder whose av these animations do work for?

neko

Well, I was writing my response before my computer got hijacked for use here... so let's try this again from the top.

I've seen several interesting opinions on this thread. Going right down the line...

1) There should be a unisex/transgender option for avatars.

In theory, it's a good idea to "just give both sliders to the avatar options." However, you have to realize that avatars in Second Life are created through two completely different meshes... and defined behaviors independantly for each mesh. This creates a fair deal of work essentially "recreating the wheel."

From a holistic standpoint, however, avatars should be allowed to be defined as neither male nor female. However, the system makes no concrete distinction where attachments come into play unless you attempt to mouse "through" the costume. This renders the problem fairly moot for these parties.

If, however, there's enough demand for a third avatar mesh with individual options... perhaps things may progress.

2) It's strange why Second Life limits avatars to (human) male and female associations. This is backwards/archaic thinking.

Not necessarily. I've lobbied the Lindens several times on this exact issue, and the response has usually been "it's more feasible and accessible to give people things they can more readily associate with." In this case, we're talking certain things we're immediately familiar with from the real world - like gravity, housing, standards in physics that emulate Earth, and even the singular sun/moon systems.

As Second Life progresses, I'd guess that more options will be made available to remove some of these limits. For now, however, focusing on a system that is immediately recognizable by most users should be a priority until Second Life has a well-established user-base and enough resources to go beyond that.

3) Avatars should be given more sliders for things like tails, fins, fur, other appendages... etc.

If you're waiting for sliders for things like this... well, no offense, but you'll be waiting quite a while. This is just not feasible unless the system is built around your goals.

This sends the scope that the Lindens would have to plan for into the stratosphere. Furthermore, speaking as someone that designs his own 3D models - something like this would be difficult/impossible to do with a single mesh... again increasing the scope of the product considerably.

However - the ability to use custom meshes that users have built and animated is all-but a certainty... it'll just take a while before we get there. Getting to where the users can create their own animal-or-what-have-you-avatar is a more realistic goal. Asking the Lindens to do it all for you is not.

4) Second Life should break the (ideological) constraints placed on Western Society.

I agree, but remember that everyone is allowed their opinion on matters like these.

5) ... manboobs.

Uhhh... if it floats your boat.

Hmm... how about, rather than defined "male" or "female" genders, or even a neutral gender that can be changed either way (somewhat how my idea works anway):

Use a single base avatar model. a neutral gender.

Add a new slider under "body" - gender.

0 would be male (or female) 50 absolutely neutral and 100 female (or male)

As the slider is moved to left or right, the base neutral model would be modified closer to that gender's current body set and bone structure. 0 - 35 could use the male walk, 36 - 64 could use a new neutral walk and 65 to 100 could use the female walk.

Make ALL sliders available to avatars.

As the "Gender" slider is moved, different avatar part sliders become more effective - the further toward 100 you move the slider, the more (for example) the breast size slider would affect the avatar... IE, at 0 the effects would be almost unnoticable, whereas at 100 they would be very obvious, as with the current avatars.


Just a thought, but I think it works better than having two genders, or even three.

lol I guess I tend to dig for gold without realizing.

I really like this idea, I'm not sure if it's really POSSIBLE... But I really like it. The biggest problem I had considering my male avatar was the jaginess of the messh. The only solution to this that I've come up with so far, is making my avatar muscular, so my avatar is jaggy... I'm personally not interested in giving my avatar breasts, or anything like that, but I would really like a more neutral avatar form...

At last a really interesting debate thread abut something different and useful for the future...

Yes I totally agree with much said here and in one area I have alradsy myself posted Proposition 125 in Voting ( PLEASE vote..) asking for MUCH greater variety in the sliders, especially the ranges so that body parts can be a great deal smaller and a great deal larger. I would especially like to see MORE sliders now, more variables.

I believe with all the amazing tech add ons and upgrades and new versions, the Avatar making which is the CORE of all of us visually in SL next to the prim system has become old tired and neglected and dates back a long way now. It is TIME for an SL Avatar Makeover !!!

I think so many interesting suggestions have come out here. I am constantly amazed how clever people are to have got round the AV limits by using prims and scripts and the current TINY phaze is a clever example of how creative people can be. BUT I think its high time we had BETTER base AV making by a long way. SL needs now to spend some time and EFFORT giving us some MAJOR upgrades devoted entirely or mainly to improving the variety of the AV making process without us having to use prims and scripts, though I would like to see SL approach intergrating features for us to add and merge prims with bodies maybe.

I myself have a less than usual girl shape, im not tall, im at the absolute smallest almost for hips and thighs which means skirts fit wrong, and the rear doesnt curve well, and I have total max on breasts which means I get blocky str8 edges at the limit of the chest pixel block. My vote propostion was put in to increase the limits on these blocks so i can get superior size, larger even that present without getting str8 edges and distortion of the next body block below. Also most animations are wrong for me.

I think also why if this is an adult game can we not have MUCH MORE variety and detail in bodies, including areas currently not given any options, like the blank ' barbie' spot we all have on our bodies, even worse for men. I would like to see something done to allow clothes to wrap around 'merged' or linked prims maybe.. this would allow guys finally to have something really there all the time under clothes not just have to stop and ' add it on' ha...

For girls I would like to see much better options, for breasts, not just a one size expand for breasts with cleavage, but a variety of sliders allowing for a much better rounder and larger shape if required or the opposite of almost complete absence for those who dont want to have breasts. Many of the mixed options here would add that. I would also like to see movement options while walking, 'bounce', greater body reactions, better musculature and the ability to add or detract from chest size without any effect on back or shoulders width lie now.

In short I think a complete and hugely varied upgrade on every aspect of AV making. I would LOVE to see the level of realism and fantasy av making on the lines of Poser 5 brought into AV making in SL. I know there are tech problems but the world of SL should now make a major effort using ALL these ideas to truly give us tools to create more astounding forms, shapes, and bodies which look, react and move better and interact better with the prim system.

LETS have one major version just dedicated to improving AV making, it will benefit everyone.

This is a nice old thread, let's talk about this again.

It always amuses me when fellow heterosexuals totally fail to see that our society *constantly* and *unremittingly* pushes the heterosexual lifestyle 'in people's faces'.

Heh, well, that post is from 03, I lost 75 pounds since then... dont worry, I'm still fat and moobalicious, just not morbidly obese.
To be perfectly honest, having seen some of the people who live over there, the last thing you want is to make them think it's ok to be fat. I'm not saying everyone should be a toothpick, I like my women nice and shapely. But really, if you're wider than you're tall you should realize there's something very wrong with your body and you won't live very long or very healthily
Eventually, when I have enough money for it, I will definitely go to a fancy gym and lose the rest of my fat. It's not just that I look fucking horrible in certain places, e.g. the hanging skin from my fat ass makes it look like I have a VAGINA, and my whole body is covered in stretch marks.
I also FEEL fucking horrible. My blood pressure and/or sugar levels fluctuate wildly, making it difficult for me to think straight and be productive. Making love (missionary-style) totally fucks up my wrists and elbows. My back is constantly sore and in general I feel much older than 25 and have low energy levels. It's not normal or ok to be obese. Don't fool yourself into complacency. Calculate your BMI and body fat ratio and start working out TODAY:

http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/dnpa/bmi/calc-bmi.htm
http://www.he.net/~zone/prothd2.html

Please feel free to contact me for weight loss tips

yeah i wanna wear makeup as a male and do a eddie izzard

I totally agree with this,

but just to let you guys and gal know, there are ways to cheat around the male/female facial hair issue.. SKINS!! No designer makes skins for females with facial hair Not only that but if you want to do basic stuff, just use the male skin, and make urself as thin as possible. Remember, you can always use guy skins on ladies its disgustin by my opinion but its possible for anything in second life. I bet you could even do many other things like the other parts, but sadly need prims to work them. Maybe someday we will get more and more attachment segments personally i would love two hip and two back sections for sword and other weps to attach onto ur body without need of spare limb!

At the risk of sounding like I'm suggesting people be fake....

Would "falsies" be codeable?

I agree with Zenimus. It would too complex having that level of customization.

Not sure about the whole Hermaphrodite thing though. Apart from it taking up more CPU time working out the blend between animations, it's all a bit too 'politically correct' for me.

Ok, I have to comment on this one. All hormones are natural, imbalanced or not.

I do agree with a gender nutral option. I don't like the huge hulk look nor do I like looking like wimpy hunch back either. And lets face it, the default walks are dorky for both male and female. That is why we have ao's. I would like to see all the sliders in one option. I have made a child av for a part in a movie but to get that small a size I still had breasts and couldn't get rid of them. The male option just didn't go small enough and made me look like a dwarf rather than a child. There are butchy females as well as femme males. Why not give us the option to choose what we want? Personally I like the make up option for men because I use the eye liner for a more goth look. I am surprised that option is even there for men. I want to thank the originator of this thread (sorry forgot your name) for bringing this up. It wasn't something I had thought of but am glad to see someone has.

So other than being able to log on invisable I agree with this wholeheartedly and feel strongly about it. As far as bringing politics and religion into this issue, it simply doesn't apply nor belong.

As much as I do admire the debate going on here, and though I don't post much on the forums, this I will say. I think that this issue more or less something that would be designated as 'nitpicking'.

While I do agree that a slider system would be pretty cool, it's not really THAT essential, and that feature not being present does not really take away from the SL experience.

If you say gender shouldn't be an issue, then why are you focusing on the issue of the great gender divide?

While I do believe that it's not really the 'realms of realism', I think that in itself is what makes SL a unique experience. It kinda teeters on the brink of realism and surrealism.