limit avatars to 1000 prims

yes you read well, i suggest avatars to have a hard limit of 1000 primitives.

Currently an avatar can hold more than 9000 prims wich is more than one HALF sim of prims, so i suggest to get it reduced to a lower but still safe value of 1000 prims.

It might, i hope help sl to run more smoothly client wise, less primitives to draw.

of course it is probably going to force some to reconsidere the way they build attachments, but i do believe that if you can make something pretty with 200 prims, you should be able to achieve the same effect with less.

After all land is pretty controlled prim, wise, why not avatars?

vote for this proposal !

How can I acquire more prims for my property?
I currently have about 2 left and there is still much work to do.

One sim worth of prims is 15000.

Maybe some super technical guy from LL can answer al about this...

IF prim heavy avas are a problem or not..

Where the limit are before problem originate....

IF we need to discuss this or not...

That a sim accept 15000 prims are seen if you click on land. .. Most know..

But what can an ava wear..

And what about active scripts?.

Can we get more prims on land if avas are restricted to wear less or more prims?

..and more..

/Tina EXAKT curios..

Technically avatar primitives shouldn't be a particularly large drain. Since really they can't do anything, scripts in them can be an annoyance, but only if they are badly done. All avatar prims have are values, ie where they are in relation to the attachment point etc.
It's not like they are treated as physical objects or such, so the limit isn't required except perhaps on the client end, which has LOD algorithms that should be fairly aggressive toward avatars with 9,000 prims on them.

In other words; avatar prims are really only a client-side drain unless they have complex scripts in them

sorry for the missed word, i should triple check my posts now

haravik i do not talk about server side drain but all these prims HAVE to be rendered by the client, and even a top level computer cannot get a decent framerate in a place with more than 8 avatars loaded of prims.
Most peoples that build stuffs in sl or that wear them don't know about polygons or fps rate or 3D engine, and most probably don't care, however the "free for all you can eat" status of the avatars is probably what drain most of the resources of the client. sure for the server it is probably not much of it, but we need limits that allow more modest computers to get a bearable experience in SL.

i benchmarked the polygon cost of the avatar of a friend, who love making very primmy armors and we arrived to about 120 000 polygons for only his avatar. this is more that what most comercial game ever display at the same time , and i mean a full landscape with several characters showing

I think I know of a computer that could render EVERYTHING SecondLife could throw at it.

Of course, it is a beast of a machine costing in estimation, US $70,000 or more.

http://www.boxxtech.com/products/apexx8_specs.asp

8 dual core AMD CPUs and 128 GB RAM FTW.

The problem with setting a limit means there is no push for advancement. Why not limit AV's to the initial blue ball? LL would not have had to spend hardly anything.

While I agree that it can get overboard, I truly doubt there is a large problem - when it becomes a large problem, more people will yell, and LL will have to upgrade machines to handle the load, write better rendering code, in short, work back to the cutting edge.

Rather looking to make limits, it would make more sense to help work to overcome the current limits.

Well the thing is you can only do so much with a cpu , it isn't black magic, of course the sl renderer could be optimised but you can only optimise things to a point. The problem is that everything is strictly limited (scripts are throtled by the server, land prims are limited per sim, etc...) exepted this avatar primcount thing, you can't ask peoples to get a 8 cpu machine because you want to wear objects that would make their creator fired from any game companies.

I have to agree. This suggestion has been made many times. To be honest, I think limiting avatars to 200 prims would be reasonable. The laggiest user-created thing on SL is a heavily-primmed avatar.

In addition, it has been suggested that avatar-based scripting and even scripts-per-parcel be limited in the same fashion. Prims are limited... why not scripting? I remember one user that had over 600 scripts on a 4096 plot of land. That's just ridiculous. On any other system such people would be considered "resource-hogs".

I'd likely vote for your proposal, except for 2 things:

* 1000 prims per avatar is far too many. My very fanciest armor.. some of the best on SL, is only about 140 prims.
* From what I and others have been able to deduce, the primary source of lag on SL isn't prims, or textures, or user content. It's the way SL coding, asset servers, transfer protocols and databases handle those items. In other words, the issue needs to be handled LL side, attacking the source of the problem, not the symptoms.

Still, setting a reasonable avatar prim limitation and avatar/land script limitation would seem a sensible step.

well 1000 prims is quite good as a first step, compared to 9000

can still be lowered more later

1000 Prim AV is crazy to me O.O but 9000 is out of there mind they need to do something i don't care if you do have a super computer your graphics card still has to load every little image/prim in order to view it hell if someone with 9000 Prim aV probly haven't loaded up there images in there prims since they built it with that much power i say have a Limit Prim on the land so if they have more then 1000 Prims AV they are kicked back to were they are tpped or a Sim that is only for Logging in or getting booted from a sim from were they are. There crazy to have that even the fastest SL server can only give out some much but it's not the server that does the speed it's the users Own Computer with Ram and Video Ram at the most i got this laptop and im barly getting Furnation Sky Mall to load O.O but it loads after being there within a hour but still some stuff not loaded and that not even close to 9000 Prims O.O I say Kick them out if they come to your Sim with more then 1000 Prim AV They should being doing that. I swear sometimes i wonder if all the issues with them updating everyweek is the problem or stupit users making to much prims. Like one day i went to the Sandbox and a stupit person had like boxes and balls all over the place If it was me owning it i ban them People trying to make stuff and do it with less lag as much as they can and they go make it hard for them BAN There stupit !@$!@%! they should even be on Second Life it makes things easier for all of us that want to really play SL and want less lag.

SL has to be carefull about how they limit avatar because in their advertising they have stated the avatar is customizable with very few imposed limits. Also, 9000 plywood cubes would not cause any notible lag but just a couple dozen tori will (I have witnessed this first hand) grind a high end computer to a stand still.

Actually the extra RAM is negligable (2gb is easily enough for most sims, in fact it's probably overkill), and SL doesn't recognise multiple processors/cores, so the only thing that would really help is any extra graphics cards you pump into it.

Back on track though, limiting the prims isn't really the way to go IMO. While builders should be more careful, the LOD engine should still be capable of scaling an avatar down if they are too high by removing tiny prims and reducing the detail of larger ones. If the number of prims on an avatar is definitely what's lagging you, then LOD is not doing its job properly/as well as it could.

Excuse me, but what about those of us who paid large sums of money (L$3500) for one of Daryth's dragon avatars? The number of prims in one of those exceeds 200. One I counted (based on the temp-rezed modle) was 384.

384 is a significant number to be sure, but it's a LONG way from what some people have and it's not finely detailed either, most of the asthetics is in the texturing. I refuse to bow down to an avatar prim limit below 500, some of us NEED those prims.

Mind, I don't wear the av very often because I know it causes lag, but I do like to stretch my wings now and again (that and it's so good at winning contests--and yes, I do warn people that I'm about to lag them all before putting it on, most people don't care as the club is gennerally laggy as hell already anyway).

If there was to be an avatar complexity limit it really would need to be scored, and implemented client side (since that's where the effect is). A convex prim would cost one, a ring 2, a torus 10, each dimple, cut, or hollow would double the cost, and a twist would multiply it by 10. Each 1000 points of score would make the level-of-detail algorithm treat it as being twice as far away. So someone with 150 simple spheres in their wings would be fine, but someone with 10 twisted cut toruses in their hair would show up with the same detail that someone 4 times away would normally...

Then they could cut back on the current aggressive LoD rules, and make the Lusk folks happy.

wouldnt help a damn bit , SL is single threaded so you would have 1 core working and 15 sitting basicly idol

True, but I could run 16 copies of SL with no noticable lag because of it.

Or SL and several other things.

true that hehe

Well, I'm not saying there are not 9,000 prim avs out there... but I've been on SL almost 2 years and to my knowledge I've never seen one over 800... and even that was because of some vanity-stupid piece of jewelry that a person couldn't even tell was 400 prims if they looked close.

I've seen some 200 prim armor. A 200 prim wing set. I have a 50 ft tall dragon that I sell that's 150 prims--and it looks good. Seen a couple of 400 prim high-tech robots. But I don't think I've ever seen 1000, let alone 9000. Considering a 1024m piece of land is limited to 234 prims and has a lot greater need for such a prim count than an avatar...

To tell the truth, I think LL could set an avatar limit of 9,000 prims and absolutely nothing would change on a daily basis. But set a limit of 200-400 prims... and people will start trimming avatar prims to meet the limit. And we'll still have some great looking avatars. (although frankly, I think 400 prims just so someone can have prim shoelaces is a bit ludicrous).

Well, I threw 200 out there based on the majority of avatars I see around the land. My question would be: could those dragons be done in fewer prims and still look good?

And that's the point-- if the dragon has enough prims that you have to warn people you're about to lag them by wearing it... that's too many prims.

The same could be said about land. "234 prims isn't enough... I need more for my building". If there's a limitation though, people will work with what they have and not build 384 prim avs in the first place. To be honest, I was a little surprised when I learned that LL limits the number of prims on land, but doesn't limit much more active and much more laggy avatars.

I'd like to say that maybe 200 isn't enough-- but frankly I'd guess that the majority of the avs on SL come in way under 200 prims. The concept is to prevent people from coming to a sim wearing ungodly numbers of constantly moving prims and making everyone else suffer just so they can wear an extra piece of indefinable bling.

Regarding current avs that are extra-high-prim, well, I can think of a couple of options:

* The creators could come out with modified versions and allow people to trade in, or....
* Linden lab could have a "extra prim" premium (say, US$1 a day) for people who insist on wearing high-prim avs. That way, if they just have to have such an av... they can buy the right.

As someone that builds avatars, some of them more than 400 prims, I'd have to say, let's not limit them And yes, I'm prim conscious when I build my avs. I don't want to use too many, but I want the avs to look really good too.

I can tell you, definitely, that it is *extremely* difficult to link 256 prims together for an avatar. The limit may be at 9000 (assuming 256 x all attachment points) but actually getting there, damn near impossible.

My Kitsune avatar has about 256 prims in the tails (9 tails, about 26 prims each plus some of the other parts for the ass). It took me about 3 hours just to link them all together.

I think the only limit we need is trying to link the stupid pieces all together, forcing a limit of 200 per avatar is rediculous. And keep in mind, that the person that wears the avatar gets hit with any potential lag moreso than anyone else.

a limit of 500 600 sound like the way to do , it wil make peoples think twice before wearing fullprim diamon rivers or fullprim blinged diamon bracelets

I think a large portion of the lag is actually from the fact that when Daryth made this av she loaded each prim with the color-changing script and each texture instead of just calling a UUID.



US$1 a day is rediculous. That's worth THREE premium accounts. Or a premium account up at least two tiers of land.

*whoosh*

Og Try Again. Use simple words.

Og don't need prim limit. Og need client that make primmy avs look bad at shorter distance than non-primmy avs.

Og have good idea. Maybe count prims that lag client more! That way Og not see chichi hair with 30 twisted tortured truncated toruses, but see wings made of simple prims fine, even at 30 meters!

Og like alliteration.

Og don't like spectacles turning into hexagons, make Og look like Elton John with muzzle, just cos chichi hair make Bub Linden lag.

Caphiche?

Og like "capiche", sound sophisticated!