An End to For Sale Signs -forever-

Land rights are clearly being abused. I started a thread with the question on whether or not land should still be sellable, or if it should go directly to Lindens and back up for auction as soon as it is released... I didn't have a strong opinion then, but now I'm sure I want this now. I say, give land barons and illegit land owners two months to sell off their parcels, and from then on land goes back to the Lindens when it's released. No more land baroning, a lot less anxiety, a new flow of parcels to the auction block, and quite frankly--because there won't be land barons making profits that push new residents away--the Lindens should technically be making more money through the auction system. The Lindens technically OWN the land, so why the Hell do we have selling rights? I miss public land, but now that it's gone, let's work with the new system and find ways to further take down the reign of For Sale Signs.

*as an afterthought, I have to add that land that is released could conceivably go to public again using this system. This way, residents can make transactions in a one-on-one kind of way, like real real-estate, and "for sale" signs would at -least- be minimized. You'd have to have a whole troop of people working for you to make a land baroning system work with this plan. Alternate suggestions absolutely desired.

I say anything I had to pay to get, I have a right to resell.

I find an unattractive sign never helps sell your property, especially if all your neighbors have them too. Do you want to move in next to an eyesore? I won't suggest people shouldn't sell their land, that's wrong. They bought it, they can sell it. They just need to go about it the right way. While common sense would seem to suggest that using find or land boundries, or even a land scanner would be able to get your better data than these signs, I still see them. They're not informative beyond 'for sale'. I'd still have to go over there and check the price. If I'm going to do that, why not just use find? If I'm using find, I want to see a picture. If, in the picture I just see a bunch of junk, or no picture, why would I want the land?

Blah, anyway, maybe there should be some Linden approved signs for selling land? It would make this all so much simpler.

Daemioth Sklar, what are you, a communist? What I paid for is mine! I paid for the land, I pay the monthly land fees, therefore, I have the total right to buy and sell as much land I choose.

I also take exception to the term "land baron" being used inappropriately. Those who buy large tracts of land, either through auctions or through regular land sales in the hopes of making a profit are called "land speculators". Stop using the term land baron to describe a land speculator.

I am a land baron. I have over 9200 sq meters of land. I have devloped that land into areas that all residents of SL can enjoy and I have done so for other land barons and even those who don't quite qualify as land barons.

Get off this idiotic horse called "communism", because that is what you are proposing, and embrace the fact the SL is a capatlitistic society, with all of its benefits and pitfalls.

Nice, not 10 minutes after I make my post I get at negative from Mia Lament because she "doesn't like land barons". What a wonderful way to voice your opinion on the subject!

Don't go starting a witch hunt Alexander, that's not me and I'm not going to have you pointing any more fingers at me. Don't call me a communist--especially when you're using the word completely inaccurately--and try sticking to the topic instead of getting all grouchy and accusational. If someone else has a problem with you being a land baron in-game, that has nothing to do with me. I choose my battles. Ease up.

Your entire post reaks of communism. You are telling us that if we don't sell off our large holdings, then the Lindens should take our land away. This is about "for sale" signs, this about those that own large tracts of land and those that don't.

So don't go accusing me of going off topic, you started this topic "off".

Micromanaging the economy is not what the Lindens should be doing. Nor would they be for slitting their own finanical throats.

Grow up and play the game.

hmm.. let me think.. nope..thats a bad idea.. the sl economy would fall through the ground.. do you honestly think that all the money traded back and forth in sl is for tshirts and nick knacks? Being able to sell your land and move is one of the things that makes sl so realistic to real life.. it also drives the markets.. Im suprised anyone even thinks of these things really, its like people are already paying thousands for virtual land..but they know they can recoup some of there money so they do it.. if it got turned back into the lindens it would be such a waste to even own land.. i own approx 70k meters of land and if it ever came to if i couldnt sell my land i would quit the game totally, i am in the military and frequently travel.. when i get notice that i am going to be shipped off for a good while.. what do i do? i sell off all my land to avoid paying land use fee's while im gone.. do you think that people like me would want to constantly spend there money on land just because they have to leave the game for a little bit? think about it a little more.. i know some people think the world should change to suit there needs but i am asking please think about the others that dont sell there land to make a quick buck but yet to save them a buck.

You're all communists! EVERY LAST ONE OF YOU! EVEN THE CAPITALISTS! Death to you all!!

With that out of the way, this is yet another knee jerk reaction to something that's slowly fixing itself. The way it will work (or works now, not sure), people will still be able to put their land up for sale, but now if someone quits SL, their land isn't instantly for sale to the quickest person for a cheap price, instead it goes back on the market to the highest bidder. Which means land barons will have to fork out much more cash to get their hands on land, which means they'll own less of it and others will have a better chance of getting it.

Alexander--if you aren't a troll, I don't know what is.

I disagree that we should limit what these people do with thier land, it is after all thier land, they paid for it.


I do however agree with the sentiment expressed, Land Barons are a scourge, but it isnt because they are purchasing land and sellling it. It is how they choose to do it, they disregard the feelings of the neighbors and they dont consider location or any of the other things that go into land value. I have seen ghetto plots for insane prices etc. It would be good of the land barons to act more appropriately and with more consideration, but we cannot force them to do this, that is taking away a right every one of us has to act as he or she deems fit.

I know of a few "land barons" that behave in a good manner, do not put up for sale signs and price thier plots reasonably and in accordance with the area in which they have choosen to sell, these people are the people you should see to purchasse land. If you boycott the child like behaviour of the other land barons and do not purchase thier lands perhaps they will see that for what it is and reform thier ideas of how land should be sold. It is up to the consumer to shape the world. Look for the people who improve the land before they try and sell it, who dont put up huge ugly signs and outrageous prices. Use the land find menu, and if the plot has a for sale sign, dont buy from them. Simple as that.

Or at least it seems simple to me.

Daemioth ,

Thanks for pointing out that I am troll. I always wondered if I was a land baron or a land speculator and now I know that I always been a troll.

Let the MARKET dictate what land prices are. Let the MARKET dictate where land speculators choose to purchase tracts of land. Let the MARKET dictate land barons (such as myself) develop our land. Let the MARKET dictate what land barons choose to build.

I agree, I hate the huge for-sale signs. But lets be perfectly honest with ourselves, this is not about for-sale signs, this about your hatred toward those that have large tracts of land.

I guess I have to keep repeating myself about the atrocious terminology used in these posts: Land Speculators are those who own large tracts of land for the sole purpose of selling them off for a profit, hopefully. Sometime Land Speculators do, sometimes they don't.

Land Barons are those who own large tracts of land for either development or even preservation of undeveloped land.

Get off of your freaking communist high horse and stop trying to have the Lindens micro-manage the SL economy. They have more important things to worry about, like stability of the servers!

Thank you, Neil, for discussing this topic with sound mind and without pointing fingers. It's a pleasure to talk about something that's obviously very important in Second Life without witch hunts taking part in this.

Oh, and be quiet, troll.

Daemioth, you ain't much better. If you'd read his post, you'd realize that Alexander's merely a land-owner, not a land-baron, despite what he calls himself. He's trying to re-invent the definition of land-baron to fit a more Websters ideal. To him, a person who owns half a sim, puts stuff on it like buildings, trees, whatever, and never sells it would be a land-baron.

That's actually a more valid definition than the one we have for "land baron" now, who are, in reality, land speculators.

Thank you Molecular for actually reading my posts. As for "witch-hunts" who is conducting a witch-hunt? The true witch-hunt is being conducted by those like Daemioth who want to demonize land barons while glossing over the real issue of land speculators.

There is nothing wrong with owning large tracts of land. There is nothing wrong with selling land. I have agreed that the for-sale signs are an eyesore, but what I cannot agree with it is a measure that reeks of communism.

Thanks for reading.

Heres an idea, if the land is for sale, automatically return all objects and turn off build. Gets rid of sale signs.

I would think that's a good idea for getting rid of the For Sale signs, Ryen, but if -real- land developers sell land with actual houses on them, it wouldn't work. On the other hand, if land was non-sellable in its current form, but rather people actually had to interact with one another and do the sales one on one, then someone could conceivably build a house on a plot of land (or whatever) and sell the parcel to someone through a personal transaction--a lot like how we have "open houses" in real life. Yeah.

Allow residents to sell their land at auction. This makes all prices market-driven. No one will buy land at some set, high price in-world if they know they can get a better deal by bidding on land in auctions.

Resident auctions give the seller the best possible price, give the buyer the best possible price, and give middlemen no profit margin to speak of. End of the everyone's-a-baron era.

For Sale signs might be replaced by At Auction signs... But at least you know the land will be bought with X days, then bye-bye sign.

Tiger, I think that's a brilliant idea.

*yawn*

Using the classic description, a Land Baron is one who owns the majority of the real estate in an area and uses that virtual monopoly to his own advantage.

This is NOT the philantropist who keeps land for public use, but rather the ones who see to profit by "unfairly" leveraging their monopoly.

In the case of Second Life, the only reasonable definition of the term "Land Baron" is one who buys land at auction and then re-sells it for a profit that is above what the market would consider fair.

Like currency traders (who act as a "bank", and take a small cut for providing the service), it is possible to be an ethical Real Estate Broker. However, buying land at L$1-2 per meter, then reselling that same land for $5-6 seems patently unfair. Unlike the real world, there is no such thing as "development" in Second Life. There is no cost associated with building, so there's no need to develop or zone land. Buying up all the land to create an artifical shortage is an unfair abuse of the system. In the United States, we have laws regarding this kind of activity.

The simple fact is this: If you buy large plots of land just to split them up and resell them at huge markups, you're a Land Baron. Call yourself a speculator if you will, but there's a difference. One uses an artifical shortage of supply to drive up prices, squeezing the market for all it's worth. The other encourages free enterprise by buying land and selling it for fair prices.

Personally, I would love to get in to the "brokerage" business: buy from residents only, and re-sell the property, making boudry adjustmensts as needed to keep the land interesting and protect its value. But the tier fees would be prohibitive.

Oh well.

Communism: the state owns everything, and the individual has no property rights. Each provides according to his abiltity and takes only what he needs.

Based on that definition, what you are proposing IS Communism. However, this definition of Communism isn't a bad thing. What's a bad thing is what the Soviet Union actually got: Leninism. It's too bad that Lenin put a bad meaning to what is actually a good idea.

This is going to be my last post to this thread as I really don't think the creator of the thread cares about opposing points of view, especially from those of us who own large tracts of land.

This thread was never about the title. This thread was about demonizing those that own large tracts of land and those who speculate by purchasing large tracts of land through auction or other means and then selling off those tracts in bits & pieces.

I have agreed that all of those "for sale" signs is very tacky and an eye-sore, but that does not matter to the creator of this thread. No, what matters to the creator of this thread is the demonization of those who actually keep the economy of SL going.

hell, i think to celebrate the release of the new sl update i will but another sim.

Yes, but REAL land sellers dont have giant flashing signs spinning around their property, now do they?