Knockoffs

How can we fix this problem? I just had an encounter with a knockoff creator. He exactly duplicated a very well known SL vehicle and is selling it. I notified the original creator. And his response - "What can I do?". This also happened with a new game created by a bright new creator. It was knocked off and discounted. His response was to basically give it away for free to prevent the knockoff artist from profiting. Now, do you think that original creator is incented to continue creating?

I'm fairly certain that the Lindens will point you at the DMCA statement. We all know that it isn't cost justifiable to hire a copyright lawyer. So, what do we do?


Side Notes:

What sincerely disturbed me was that the knockoff creator I met also showed me his system for collecting Tsunami donations. Do you think those donations are making it to that relief effort? (Edit: this is not the major Tsunami relief effort going on in SL)

And finally, this person was asking about acquiring my code for the money tree system I recently released. When I declined, he stated that he would just build his own. Now, that I wouldn't mind - in the right hands. But, the potential for abuse there is pretty large. This person gave off a lot of little tell-tale signs of being an underage player.

not really disagreeing with you but why is this a big deal? there are tons of product knock offs irl like in fashion especially but think how many different brands of salad shooter or "George Foreman" grill there are. if you go around making Nike shoes you'll get in trouble but just making the same thing as someone else doesn't seem that bad. why's it a problem for sl?

i mean if someone took your actual work and put their name on it yeah that's bad. if someone sees something you made and builds their own, makes their own textures and writes their own scripts isn't that ok even if it looks and acts the same as yours?

just askin' honestly since this kind of post pops up about once a week.

The problem is that it is an exact duplicate short of scripts (assuming those weren't duplicated through some exploit). Right now I can't go out and make a pair of Nikes and put the swoosh on them and expect to sell them. Nike would be on me in a second. Why? Because the revenue they would lose outweighs the cost of the lawsuit. Here that is just not so.

All I'm getting at is - without some stop gap Linden measure, knock off artists can really put a damper on original creations. Why build something when you know tomorrow there will be 10 other people out their claiming they made it and selling it?

i dunno. it's fun to build things and when you get done you have it and can use it. are you saying the problem is that it discourages creativity?

i still don't get how someone could be upset if someone else makes a knock off of their thingy. if they took yours and duped it and put their name on it yeah, that's lame. but if they built their own from scratch and it looks and works like yours that's kinda flattering.

Can you point me to which exact law this person has violated?
ToS? Community standards?
Unless he found some way to abuse the system, there is nothing legally or morally wrong with making your own version of something.
Coke and Pepsi are two brands (out of a million or so in existence) that sell a similar beverage. Should they all be stopped?

Really? Flattering. Hmm. When you take the time to conceive, develop, create and script something, put it out on the market and then someone copies it by the numbers, and after playing with yours rewrites the same functionality without putting any effort into changing, improving or otherwise making it anything but a clone of your work, then releases it for less because 'it wasnt much effort', I tend to find it pretty annoying, rather than flattering.

And yes. It's one of the overriding reasons I haven't produced anything commercial in SL for many months. Why bother? I'm not doing all that work so someone else can make money out of it.

The moral issue is this:

You work on a product for over 2 months. You squash bugs, perfect code, design an interface, make it as good as you can.

Then someone comes along, copies everything you did in a day, and makes a profit.

It may not be "legaly wrong", but let me reveal a small secret:
Just because its legal doesnt mean its right.

Sapphire, I agree with your stance, but there isn't any way to prevent this other than doing something under the DMCA...which would also require that you maintain your own copyright, etc, blah blah blah

The core issue here is that it is a sleazy move. I don't agree with it, and I think that a knockoff isn't flattering, its just some stupid bastard trying to profit off of your work. But we have no adequate way to protect ourselves outside of horribly expensive means.

I guess this means -- have a field day making knockoffs, until the policies or tools change, and its a crying shame.

Zuzi, I'm sorry, but it seems like you're rather biased towards the knockoff artists..


Are YOU duplicating?

US Federal Copyright law from my understanding. One of the reasons the whole Copyright system was created was so that a person could expect a fair profit on original works, thus incenting people to create. Pepsi can make a coke-like beverage, but they can't make a Coke. Here is SL, the copyright is based mainly on the visual look of the object, compare it to any work of visual art. We own the copyright the moment we create it. If someone makes an exact duplicate for resell, isn't that copyright infringement?

The problem is that in RL, there are fundamental differences between knockoffs.

Nobody who buys pepsi thinks its coke. Nobody who buys dollarstore generic chocolate sandwhich cookies thinks they are buying Oreos. Nobody who buys a dollarstore plastic doll thinks they are buying a Barbie.

Lets put if this way...

If Pepsi ever gets their head out of their rear and makes a cola that doesn't suck (Sorry Pepsi fans ), packages it in a bright red can with white cursive lettering going up the side, and calls it "Poke"... Don't you think they are going to get their ass sued off by Coke? Of course they will.

In SL, however, it's not only possible but its laughably easy to /exactly/ copy a model, and make a script that (As far as the person using it can tell, at least at first) is similar.

In RL, if you buy a knockoff product, your getting a fundamentally different product from the "real thing". This isn't true in SL... Look at how many basicly identical "black pyramid with red-and-green lights" dance machines are out there. I sure can't tell the difference between most of them short of checking the creator tag, and I bet most people can't either.

well, I found an animation that I really liked for my animation override thing.

But it was instant, as soon as it was played, it immediately moved my avatar (snapped) into position. What I wanted was something that was gradual (a setting when you upload the animation you can put in a delay that moves your avatar from whatever position she is in to the new position over x number of seconds.

So... I went in poser and recreated the exact same animation, and uploaded it with a .5 second delay on both ends (incoming to the animation, and outgoing to another animation).

Is that morally questionable?

I still bought the animation from the person, I watched for him to come online for a few days to ask him if he could reupload it with those settings (and would have even paid additionally for that)

Technically, I recreated his work. I'm not selling it though, it's just for me.

If you re-create it for your own uses, none of this applies. That's fine, do whatever you want. It's when you sell it or claim it as your own work, or both, that there is a problem.

I was under the impression that LL had long ago granted residents the IP rights to their creations. But I don't know whether there's an in-world enforcement mechanism. If it *is* US copyright law that's being breached, it would seem that the only recourse would be in US courts.

They granted us the IP rights over a year ago now, but no, have never enforced it (to my knowledge). They just point to the DMCA.

Sapphire, from copyright.gov :

How do I protect my idea?
Copyright does not protect ideas, concepts, systems, or methods of doing something. You may express your ideas in writing or drawings and claim copyright in your description, but be aware that copyright will not protect the idea itself as revealed in your written or artistic work.

Reitsuki, you are confusing copyright with trademarks.

I sympathize. THis really does suck. You have 2 options.

1) you can get a lawyer. I don't know about how cost effective it is. If you get a judgement you can garnish their wages. Maybe whoever it is is rich? Don't know unless you try.

2) you can raise the bar. make your stuff better so that it's more difficult to copy. put a brand on it. these are the things people do in real life.

Good luck!

come on man, i'm just trying to understand the problem. no need to go implying things.

if everyone who gets knocked off puts the thing up for free or gives up creating that's kinda taking your toys and going home. not a good reaction.

seems like everything comes back to someone selling something similar to what you made and that destroys your incentive to create. seems like that implies the only reason to create is to make money tho. i just think there are alot more reasons better than making money and even if some dork knocks you off it's not like you couldn't still sell whatever it is.

sorry if anyone thinks i'm evil. i'm trying to understand Sapphire's argument is all. wasn't even saying he's wrong.

And that's the problem.

LL has basicly said, "Yeah, you own your works... But good luck getting anything enforced, because we won't help you, and let's face it, you're not going to spend the money to fight it in court, so <Nelson Laugh>."

There is no way to prevent knockoffs, but you can use your "brand name" and encourage people to check the creator.

We need a better way to advertise.

Actually, I'm not. I'm well aware that what I was talking about mostly falls under Trademark law. I was explaining, however, the fundamental problem in trying to use RL examples like "Coke and Pepsi" to dismiss SL copyright issues. I admit, however, that I wasn't terribly clear about that in my initial post.

And I think your mis-interperating what that passage you quoted means. The key phrase there is "the idea itself". Nobody was talking about ideas. The issue is with specific implimentations of those ideas.

*edit to add more content*

In other words, anyone can write a book about cloning dinosaurs and having them run amok. However, you can't re-type Jurassic Park and change a few minor details like names. You have to write your own book on the subject.

To relate this to SL, anyone could make a furry avatar and sell it. That's fine and dandy. But if you sat down beside one of Arito's works and copied it by the numbers, took a screenshot of his textures and smeared them over the avatar, and called it a "Duskwood Creature", that's not fine and dandy.

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I think it's well on its way

I'm not in any way a lawyer, but; It'd have to be an exact dupe wouldn't it? Not one prim, not one script, and not one texture out of place. It would have to be an actual copy. What you might be thinking of is trademark infringement, which is where things like Nike shoes vs. Nikye shoes might come into play.

In short I don't think you can do anything substantial about anyone biting your style.. other than perhaps a break dancing competition. I imagine the legal costs of trying to get anything going would far outweigh any payoff, assuming you could even find a lawyer to take your case.

Now, if Nike suddenly rezzed lawyer avatars in SL, we might face some problems.

Zuzi,

That's fine - everybody has their own reasons for creating (both in RL and SL). We just create for different reasons.

Eggy,

I don't want to get into a 'quoting the copyright bible' battle. But, my understanding is that if I create something original, the moment I lay down the pen I own certain rights to that work. Those rights are described here . And the 2 rights I am pointing out here are:

To reproduce the work in copies or phonorecords;

To prepare derivative works based upon the work;

That's all. I'm pretty sure that those 2 rights say that duplicates of my creations are illegal.

So what you're telling me is that if I take Snow Crash , add a period, and sell it, I'm not infringing copyright?

I think not.