new attitude about owning land

nobody wanted to talk about this in anshe's poll thread so i'm posting it as a new discussion:

"here's a question for the land brokers: with so many people tiering down, are y'all worried that sl won't attract enough people to purchase that existing land plus the new sims as they roll out?

the market is changing. the need for land is suddenly different. it seems the population's general attitude toward land is that we don't actually need so much after all. rather than buying meterage like crazy people, we're stepping back and asking ourselves "how much do i really need to do this." i would be concerned that even beautiful maui would sit idle for months, or have to eventually be sold at a loss. but i'm not in the industry."

you don't actually have to be a land broker to answer this. and feel free to argue the point. i won't be mass neg rating entire groups just because somebody called me simplistic. but it really seems to me that we've recently become far more practical about land ownership. we even teach newbies that they don't HAVE to own land and only should own land if they have a specific project in mind.

please don't turn this into an rhetorical dissertation about virtual economic theories. i'd like to talk about real people and attitudes for a change.

Watch out for THE BUBBLE!

I think it is a valid point Khamon and it worries me as well.

I have paid at least $200usd a month on tier charges since my second month in SL. I tiered down last night to $15usd and with my lifetime tier hope to be down to $0 by the end of the month. I have seen a lot of people do the same. I think it is a valid concern. It will be interesting to see how the tiering down affects things!

I was at Lash's store the other day (she makes hair) and its struck me all of a sudden how small her place is. She has a nice little SL business there and really, if you sell from vendors and boxes, you dont need much land at all. Same thing applies to the little store I share with 3 people in Miramare. It's different for people who make and sell large vehicles, I would think they require more space.

However, I also like to have land to make my home on, decorate, fiddle and putter with. But not in overly large amounts.

I sometimes wonder what the "norm" is.

I got outta the land business back when it fell from L$20/m2 to L$10/m2.

Unless LL stops creating new land and allows the existing land to be gobbled up and prices run up, I'm out..

You fiddle and putter? Nice!

I own 512 square meters I have never owned more than that and I have no plans to tier up or down

I think it's less of a new attitude and more of a trend. markets shift, fluctuate, and will rise again. Those crafty enough to survive through this ebb and flow cycle will continue (i.e. Anshe and others). I would bet that SL becomes technically stable again, and soon. LL is skilled, visionary, and experiencing natural growing pains that will settle. I belive in their talents and what htey have produced so far and am in this for the long haul or until my DNS requests fail to the grid.

Marketing will pick up again, demand will rise, and land will again be in massive demand. it will fall again too. Some people play the quick $ games and are very active when things are on the upswing. I have held on close to land I value, and it has waivered in its value but I know that there will be a time when its worth more then i paid previously. I get long term value out of it in use, and enjoy knowing I accomplished things in my SL, not by my L$ balance, but by my land holdings that have taken me months to get where they are. I neede this much land because I am indeed a prim hog, and i like building in detail. I HATE the "You have exceeded your prim allotment messages" and refuse to get them again.

You mentioned people stepping back and questioning "how much do i really need to do this" and for some people, we asked ourselves that question before we purhcased. I pay for my time here, and i dont regret one red cent of my investment.

p.s. "i would be concerned that even beautiful maui would sit idle for months, or have to eventually be sold at a loss" - im trying hard to keep that from happening

Often at the same time.

Supply and Demand is everything.. And LL has too much Supply. SL needs a 12/mo stop on new land.. That'll fix the problem real fast.

I build vehicles and like having a detailed home, workshop, and store in sl. But even I don't need more than about a 40$ tier and that's actually more than I need but gives me a comfortable margin in which to clutter when I work .

I had land in sami for a while, and then moved to bodega, about an 1/8th sim in both cases but I recently tiered down to zero and Ariel and I rented a quarter sim together on an island owned by Schwanson Schlegel. He seems to have antisipated the market a bit. he does have a lot of interest in partial island renting. it solves a few problems with mainland land.

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this is because your speculation could be influenced by when people were feeling completely frustrated with LL and SL during the login delays. now they are all inworld bumpig pixels with their naughty sex beds. inworld experience for me - two straight days of massive sales! i think i've turned more land this week than in all of december!

here is an example of your misreading the situation

an entire 24 hours before posting of this thread, anshe had already negotiated a buyer for half of maui. i had already flipped lecktors land (as it turned out - to anshe). and this morning i had already sold the other sizeable property that i acquired yesterday.



i agree, we don't need land to play sl, but generally we enjoy to have land and to build persistent structures on it to share with others. i think you are right in one thing - there is a change afoot. merchants will likely be using less land for inworld stores. instead their operating cost will be diverted to gigas and slexchange fees. i don't think our desire to inhabit the virtual space will wane unless the novelty of sl itself does. it is not my experience with people. everyone i know in sl owns land. there are only two people i cannot confirm on land ownership but they each rent 18k m2 land worth of prims from me.

I'd never be able to afford land for $200/month; $8/month suits me fine.

I have noticed this as well, people tiering down. Honestly, I don't think it will hurt the new sims available -- we've still got the newbies, right?

The $L is down as well and we're just getting over the holiday season. As Jay Knox pointed out, more likely this is a trend.

*shrug* I've never really viewed SL real estate as a good business to be in. The market is too volatile and it is tough to predict demand / prices. Plus the risk one has to take in the form of land tiers & up front purchase price it a bit much.

It is without question one of the most noticable business types in SL ... but I dont see it as being all that stable.

-AP

I am going to Post my view on land though I don't own any and will not unless something changes. And I expect to hear feedback from Land Barrons on this because my view will bust your bubble.

I do not think the community should control land sales nor have auctions. I think all property should be bought from Linden Labs and Sold back to Linden Labs. I do not agree with someone taking 2, 3 or 400 U.S. dollars or more and buying up a bunch of land to resell to only those that can afford it necessarily. I understand the economic view of it all, but; sure I could take $1000 U.S. dollars right now or more and start buying and selling and figuring out how to make money doing it trying to rush into Linden Auctions and buying Mega Meters.

I did not come to SL to make a living with Inflationary Pricing. For those that do, that's your choice; just as my choice is not too participate in buying and selling or creating and selling. I know it's part of the game and may be profitable to Linden Labs via Tier Fees and such, but I see this process as a possibility to become a bubble as well. I certainly wouldn't risk my real life dollars to buy up a bunch of land and then the economical bubble hit and I go real life broke! LOL!

If you are a Land Barron and depending on your risk factor; what would you do if all of a sudden alot of people stopped buying land? I don't think Secondlife would be sitting very well on your stomach at that moment if prices plummeted from 4k to 1k.

Land wasn't created by the sellers like creators make items. Land was created from Linden Labs.

I think a large part of it is that we are coming to our senses. I am in the process of tiering down as well. I love owning land and building and having lots of prims, but I really can't justify paying the $86 a month that I do now, and not making most of it back in some SL business enterprise (I never make much money, and tend to shop alot). The most I've ever payed for an online "game" before SL was about $14 a month. So why the hell am I paying $86?!?

I truly believe that either LL needs to greatly reduce tier fees, since building and land is one of the primary functions of SL and should be including in an affordable monthly cost of "playing" second life, or they will see alot of barren land and alot of empty sims. Sure, those with big commercial interests, or those with that kind of money to toss around will still buy in, but I won't be one of them.

I have figured out the minimum I can live with right now in SL, and am adjusting my tier accordingly. It will probably be adjusted downward even further once I get a certain long running project out of my system and decide to just socialize, shop and relax fulltime in SL.

What you speak of is blasphemy.... Money Rules All!!! Bow Down before you are struck down... Repeat after me: "I will do whatever it takes to Buy Low and Sell High"

oh yeah, i forgot to add, i want everything to be free. i've said it before and i'll say it again! LL is trying to make money out of our pocketS! we need to take action now!

I think we're seeing what a lot of us hoped to see happen... land supply finally caught up with demand enough to make land speculation a lot less attractive to people looking to make a fast buck. It's back closer to where we started where most people buy land because they want to use it, not because they expect to turn it around for a profit.

Land wasn't created by the sellers like creators make items. Land was created from Linden Labs. I wanted to restate that as I just added it to my previous post.

Okay, Counter-Point to Blake's post - from another NON-owner!

I agree whole-heartedly that "land barrons" controlling the market and inflating prices would be a BadThing(tm) and unfair to the populace.

However, I think you're forgetting two important things:

1) The Land-Barrons are in COMPETITION with each other - naturally limiting any price-fixing. You still have a competitive market - even if the "average joe" isn't a big player. Kinda mimics reality in both real-estate and the stock-market, don't you think?

2) These Land-Barrons can NEVER EVER control the market. Know why? Because LindenLab can create MORE LAND anytime they want! So the Barrons can't corner the market; and they can't force people to buy from them. Ergo, no monopoly / oligarchy. Certainly their plots in "developed areas" might be more desireable to some - but if enough people are frustrated with prices, then development will flow to the newer areas and shops will be set up there. Since those lands will be offered by LL, the Barrons will be shut-out of the early development cycle - when the "biggest boom" always happens to real-estate values.

Remember that traditional economic models only apply to a closed system in which supply is always assumed to be limited. In SL, supply is only TEMPORARILY limited - and, like The Fed, LindenLab can always adjust both supply and certain baseline rates to help balance the economy. It will experience natural cycles and shifts - but LL can indirectly provide "soft limits" to the system to keep it from falling completely out of whack.

Oh, and for the curious: Yes I find The Fed to be a bit annoying in RL; but when it comes to SL, its not a bad "safety net"!

Take care,

--Noel "HB" Wade
(Tread Whiplash)

P.S. To reply to Blake's latest post: True - but then land in real-life wasn't created by its owners. Most bought it from the US government for cheap - back in the country's early days. Same thing here, only people are paying LL for the land initially. AND its more like a "long term lease", given the land-use fees. So the "Land Barrons" have overhead and upkeep to worry about - its not a gift.

Thats hippie speak... Silence.. Hehehe Free.. Puhlez.. LOL

*unfolds tinfoil and wraps around head*
Have you considered that indeed they may NOT be in competition with each other ?? Think about it.

Here's a guaranteed way to get LindenLab to give you a bunch of land for FREE and not pay ANY tier fees. I haven't spoken to them about this - but I GUARANTEE YOU they would spring for it:

Go out and pay for all of LindenLab's Bandwidth costs for a month. Just one month. I dare you.

C'mon folks - if you aren't willing to GIVE AWAY all of your possessions and creations and time and efforts IN-GAME, why should LL be willing to pay tons of money to give away their time and efforts and investments on the system itself? They've put in FAR MORE than any of us have...

I know the "free" comment was in jest - but I just had to respond to it; because of the irony of it coming up in a thread discussing economics and "ownership".

*chuckle**sigh*

Take care,

--Noel "HB" Wade
(Tread Whiplash)

I know what im about to say is off topic, however; I tried Gambling and I know Linden Labs has nothing to do with outcome of odds, but; I tell you what, if I wanted to make money doing something I would learn scripting and build Casinos because there is no policy regarding Odds. I play a hand of Blackjack I win 1 out of 5 hands and lose my ass! LOL! I lost 3k in about an hour. So; though I don't necessarily agree with being able to set Odds to whatever you like in scripting, if I was gonna go for the mighty L$, it would be a Casino!