Builders Beware

Here's my question that puts a spin on this incase noone has thought of it yet.

What about items where the owner has disapeared or such and the item is no modify. Take "newbie" or "freebie" items for example. Would it not be fair to reverse it using this prim script thing and reverse it EXACTLY to make a modifiable version.

What you have to remember people is this. There is no good or evil, there is no wrong or right, there is only grey. Everything can be used for both sides. The question is the extent of it.

Also to these people saying they won't make things anymore. Maybe you should rethink why you say that. Could it be you are more concerned about money, eitehr real or SL?

To those that use the copier to copy thigs...are you really that lazy and stupid. I made some thing alerady. No talent, no nothing, I saw something, it spawned an idea. I tried it.

Yes I attack both sides here. Why to show that frankly this arguement is pointless. People WILL continue to use and there ARE things you can do about it. have unique furntiure, then don't elave your house open for anyone to come inside. Worried about your shop, then do as Kuro said and put the stuff in a vendor.

I bet half the people here on both sides used napster, kazaa, and the like. Now you know how it feels possibly to be on the other shoe. Changes your persective of things doesn't it.

Now how about a big hug *puts on his Barney outfit*

Stepping back to the thread start, it sounded like a person who couldn't afford an object was duping it for their own use. So if I'm reading it right, the original poster lost no sales, and there is one similar creation somewhere in the world. The words "mountain" and "molehill" come to mind.

If they can fix it so that we can still edit (or delete) linked prims separately without the numbers being visible to people without mod permission, then I vote they do that.

There really is no downside to doing that.

coco

just fyi, this feature has always existed, but in 1.5 they removed (i suspect they broke it by accident), about time they fixed it. You have always been able to copy by numbers. The only way to really stop this is to use prim torture. But then your prims are weird shapes .

Glad I build prim-heavy, its like DRM without the headache!

If someone actually copies by hand hundreds to thousands of prims I've placed, I figure they've been punished already

Wouldn't stop me from kicking their determined ass, though

I don't remember it that way, Strife. Perhaps I wasn't keen to some trick that you know, but you could only copy an object if you actually had mod rights to it, or it was unlinked. Otherwise, you could only copy the root prim.

Very very well-said Maxx.

What does torque me off on Sensual's behalf, is the gall & audacity of someone doing it right there in her shop- digit for digit. I'd have been somewhere between exasperated & furious if I walked in on someone doing that at anyone's shop. Maybe the person doing it did not see it as inappropriate (sadly, there really are people out there that do not get 'polite' or 'respect'), but it was, imo. If he looked at the numbers, got an idea of the shapes & went to a sandbox & made his own off the idea- great! BUT- without the element of intentional creativity, it just bothers me. Imitation is the sincerest form of flatterey- theft is a slap in the face. If this wasn't theft, it was pretty close to the line. And it was an appropriate time to have an emotional reaction to it. Indeed. Too bad Sensual couldn't have left a boot print on his avie's butt when she banned him.

The bright side of it is that I am sure he had no way to access the original textures or animations.Thus, even if he had managed to make off with his ill-gotten prims, it would have been a crappy knock off.

No Modify should also mean no lookie no edit. That should be the creator's right to determine. The UI is giving out too much info. No Mod & no Copy scripts do not allow me to view the particulars. Prims and textures should be similarly protected.

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Mirra Image- Decor & Wearable Art
Wilmot (88, 17)

This is not unique to SL. Look at fashion shows. The rows are filled with designers who are only there to copy as much detail about the clothing so that they can go back and mass produce versions for the general public.

I mean, unless you wear only couture clothing, you don't have much room to complain.

The main problem with this is people sorta of selling bootleg items. They copy and sell it say at a yardsale cheap. Then they get enough money or possibly get good at prims, so they do slight mods to the object without doing the grunt work. This causes a problem. Even the simple possiblity of friends sharing items is bad. Much of the selling in SL is done through word of mouth. You see someone wear an outfit, you ask and you go buy. Go to someone's house and see a couch you like, you go buy. See some sort of sexual device you go buy. Now instead people can just say, ah here you go.

While a friendly guesture it will be harder and harder for shops to stay open. Which means rental spots will raise or lower in price affecting everyone. With the way the economey is now with not giving everyone as much money, eveyr linden can count. This will become more and more rampet with the fact that people have less and less money.

Umm, one thing have I to say.....
Did I miss something? Isn't SL a game where we're supposed to have fun?
Game.
Game.

Building is fun (well for me anyway) and that's really what I enjoy doing the most (well, second to hanging out with my friends of course). And how did I learn to build? (Well aside from alot of help from Fro fro) By reverse engineering. Not necissarily going into edit on everything I saw, but just by loooking at stuff and picturing the individual prims in my head. It's going to happen, and there's nothing anyone can do about it. So with that said. Umm, deal with it, go build something else, and try to have fun.

P.S.
oh, and if they start charging for prims, I think I'll die or quit SL, probably both

lol no I lost no sales, well one since they copied it instead of buying it... and I suspect that it may have been intended for more use since I just found out this person owns a furniture store lol... Also I just received 21 (TWENTY-ONE) negative ratings from him/her and thier alts.

Reguardless of the opinions of posters on this thread .. I have to comment that I can see no excuse for that person to neg rate you. Especially since they were clearly doing something at least questionable in your store.

Neg rating just as attacks will make neg ratings meaningless.

wait a second...

in RL there is a thing called fair use...

If I buy your shit and use a prim copier I am within my right as long as I don't sell my copy.

in RL I can use tools to measure and annalyse something... reverse engineer it... it only makes sense that similar tools exist here.

I can't believe you people actually PREFER a more *resticted* world. sigh...

Anything short of anarchy is too restricted for you, yashu.

That being said, there is ZERO guarantee that the person "innocently copying your chair/house/hair/hat/vehicle" isn't going to turn right around and sell it.

In the real world, you can't copy a Sony television effortlessly with no money and very little effort involved. In SL, you can. Easily.

In the real world, the construction of a large object (say, a house) takes many months of planning and effort; copying it piece for piece, even if you had the original blueprint, is a laborious and time-consuming task. In SL, the house that "only" took a week or so to build can be copied within 5 minutes with the right scripts, and then sold, ad nauseum, with no credit given to the original designer.

Fair use is great and all, but that's no reason to just throw any sort of content protection to the wind because "it will ruin teh SL!!!11zomfg" by stifling innovation.

Give me a way to boot the assholes who copy homes and sell them with their own name on it, or hair, or dance scripts, or whatever, then you can have your infinite fair use anarchy.

LF

see this is exactly why I think SL is at the very very beginnings of commerce...

Fair use is absolutely necessary for a liberal creative society like we sortof have here...

What needs to happen is a move over to branding. There are many colas in the real world but people choose coke or pepsi because of brand loyalty.

The same thing could happen in SL... and why not?

Instead of fighting all this stuff, roll with it! Why by a cheap knockoff when you can get the real thing?! an original...

I know it wouldn't work *quite* the same here where it is about possible to make a bit for bit copy of something... well almost... still can't easily copy textures.

But I think a place that is supposed to be so forward thinking and progressive would not want more restrictions, but would find ways to work with the system, even turn it on it's heals and profit from it.

If Copyright law was in effect in LL this world will get wiped. I can open up any catalog and most furniture is copyrighted.

I have seen videos which break copyright laws. I have seen reallife logos used which break Trademark laws. I haveseen textures which break both Copyright and Trademark Laws. I have seen paintings which violate both Copyright and Trademark Laws. I could report each infringement of Copyright and Trademark law broken.

And, the only choice which Linden Labatories has is wipe this world.

Those who own reallife Copyrights and Trademarks along with Copyright and Trademark lawyers are playing this Virtual World and do not care as long as players are having fun. More than likely why LL has not done anything about those who copy Prims. And, yes there are those who work in corporations who play this game. Grow up and have fun this is a virtual world. If owners of Copyright and Trademarks along with Copyright and Trademark lawyers not pressing for a wipe stop whining and complaining.

They can get this world wiped in under 1 second if they want to press Copyright and Trademark Laws to Linden Labs.

Well we could create another tier of accounts. The current Basic account would let you own objects and log into SL. Premium accounts woud let you do the same as Basic and also own land. We then create a new Creator account and price it at $30-$50 a month. The Creator account would have the ability to create prims. Now, this would get rid of people that copy other people prims on a whim and leave creation to the people with the skills to afford it through SL sales.

Noel that is the best suggestion I heard yet instead of all this whining think of a logical solution. But, make it $25 a month and majority of real builders can afford $25 a month. And, the $25 is for this Virtual World copyright and trademark along with patents.

It ceases to be reverse engineering the moment you gain access to the original. Reverse engineering REQUIRES that you reproduce something in COMPLETE IGNORANCE of the original. If you are sitting there with the original Swatch next to you, removing every gear and noting down the measurements, then you aren't reverse engineering anything. You're producing a counterfeit good. Please review the exact definition of reverse engineering. In particular, review the clean room tenet.

Also, it is most certainly not fair use to copy something which you do not own. That's the biggest complaint here.

Nonsense. The process of reverse engineering involves taking apart the original to find out how it works and then creating a new and hopefully better way of doing it. Because if you don't do that, then you might inadvertently copy the original too closely. Even if they did make a copy of the original without looking at the original, would the original builders believe their claims of ignorance? According to other posts here, I would sincerely doubt it.

NONSENSE. Please do your homework.

I'll get you started on your path towards enlightenment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_engineering
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design

NONSENSE indeed. Perhaps you should read your own sources.

Reverse engineering (RE) is the process of taking something (a device, an electrical component, a software program, etc.) apart and analyzing its workings in detail, usually with the intention to construct a new device or program that does the same thing without actually copying anything from the original. The verb form is to reverse-engineer, spelled with a hyphen...

Without reading this whole thread (sorry, folks, but people in SL do write a lot, and write a lot of very interesting things), just let me hop in here to inject a quick comment:

A POX ON CHARGING FOR PRIMS! Whether by charging by the prim or making a person pay an extra $30 a month or whatever just for the ability to use them.

The idea that "real builders can afford it anyway" is just the sort of thing that drives me crazy and I rail against so often!

"Real builders?" What about NEW builders?

Does everything in this game always have to merely reinforce the status quo and the classes that already exist? Making it more impossible for anyone ELSE to ever become a builder?

People who are already established in the game, I notice, seem always to be for adding fees and charges to virtually everything, while taking away things like funding for events, and further restricting what basic and even "regular" (i.e., not already famous builders or scripters, etc.) premium members can do.

The game has new people coming into it every day! It's not SUPPOSED to be a place where we constantly restrict it further so that the established rich get richer and the poor or new player finds it ever more impossible to even try to get anywhere.

coco

No. Worst idea ever.

If we restrict who can make stuff in SL, the world will die.

I WANT infinite competition from 26,000 residents, not from the few rich people running about.

LF

Yay, Lordfly!

Again, someone else said the same thing I did only in a lot fewer words, lol.

coco