Experiment in Evolution.
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Roseann Flora
/wrist
Join date: 7 Feb 2004
Posts: 1,058
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05-20-2005 03:15
From: Hiro Queso After reading Philip’s blog, it refreshed some thoughts about evolutionary experiments I had been pondering some time ago. It would be so cool to run such experiments in SL, but is it possible?
First of all you would need some kind of base unit or cell. This unit would have to be coded to thrive or struggle, depending on various conditions. It would of course also need to be coded to have the ability to mutate upon replication, a vital ingredient.
We would also need to create conditions. In the real world we have evolutionary pressures such as – temperature, amount of sunlight, humidity, presence and nature of predators, availability and nature of water/nutrients, amount of/nature of the space it exists, the existence and nature of organisms that share that space (not just those above and below the food chain, but organisms that thrive in co-existence, each offering the other something advantageous e.g. Lichen). How would we simulate evolutionary selection pressures in SL? There are SO many more questions that this all raises…
How do we code in the mutations? In the RW, when a mutation occurs 99%+ of the time it’s disastrous for the organism, yet the rare beneficial mutations are vital.
What conditions can we create to simulate evolutionary pressures? How do we code these pressures into the ‘cell’? Also, we would need to find a way to have these conditions fluctuating from time to time, and different from area to area, to give diversity a chance and avoid an evolutionary dead end.
Could we code in major events? In the RW we have disastrous sudden events, and those that take place over geological time periods. The impact of meteors and major geological events, such as super volcanoes, has shaped evolution in a very short period of time geologically. Events that take place over longer periods have been equally important. Continental shift - offering isolation, the tilt of the Earth’s axis – altering the climate and inducing ice ages.
One of the most interesting steps for me is the interaction between different ‘species of cells’. How would you simulate predation and the food chain? More importantly, how would you code in the possibility of multi-cellular organisms arriving on the scene and thriving.
To make an experiment like this work, I think you would need a LOT of sims. I don’t think one sim would be enough space to offer a variety of conditions and space to grow, it would be too isolated.
So I ask the scripters here, is it possible? I would love to hear everyone’s ideas on this
One thing that I am struggling with, if we are trying so desperately to create a code that allows the possibility of all the above to happen, how much of it is evolution, and how much is by design? A question not limited to SL
Looking forward to reading your thoughts. I have thought about how sudden events, and temperatures in game would be, and think it would be neat but I am not sure about the food chain idea, I wouldn’t want to worry about being attacked. It would be really cool to see aroraborealis or see flowers bloom and. trees grow, made with quality textures. BTW I can't find the tree planter you gave me 
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Hiro Queso
503less
Join date: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,753
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05-20-2005 05:48
From: Roseann Flora I have thought about how sudden events, and temperatures in game would be, and think it would be neat but I am not sure about the food chain idea, I wouldn’t want to worry about being attacked. It would be really cool to see aroraborealis or see flowers bloom and. trees grow, made with quality textures. BTW I can't find the tree planter you gave me  Well I was thinking more along the lines of a closed experiment with us peering in. We wouldn't want the equiavlent of a T Rex running around the grid, well most wouldn't  All of a sudden I feel like John Hammond of Jurrasic Park *waits for chaos theorist to warn him of the dangers of proceeding* The tree planter - I didn't actually give you one, I have a no copy version. When I get in world, Ill IM you the creators name 
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Hiro Queso
503less
Join date: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,753
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05-20-2005 05:50
Now I have myself thinking of another cool idea, a Jurrasic Park sim!!!
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Naggirom Javelin
Registered User
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
Posts: 8
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05-20-2005 09:13
From: Moopf Murray It should, in theory at least, be possible to off-load some of the coding externally. To what extent and in what manner this could be done is obviously open to varied opinions, and there are obviously issues with doing this (such as delays etc.)
I'm also curious about the use of physics and whether that would truly be necessary. As you quite rightly say physics isn't a high point in SL's feature set at the moment, so maybe working without physics would be a better solution until physics was reliable and streamlined enough to be able to cope. It depends on what you're trying to achieve. For instance the fish I've seen (correct me on yours Surina, if I'm wrong) don't use physics at all. I have some code that allows a script to talk to the outside world and get data back. Could something like that be used to allow the "organism" to have a brain outside the world it resides in? If that was used you would be able to have as many organisms as YOU have processing power for. I would like to join too. I don't have much experience with SL scripting but I have experience with RW programming.
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Moopf Murray
Moopfmerising
Join date: 7 Jan 2004
Posts: 2,448
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05-20-2005 09:52
From: Naggirom Javelin I have some code that allows a script to talk to the outside world and get data back. Could something like that be used to allow the "organism" to have a brain outside the world it resides in? If that was used you would be able to have as many organisms as YOU have processing power for.
I would like to join too. I don't have much experience with SL scripting but I have experience with RW programming. Yes it's one possible avenue that I've thought about as well, it would allow for more complex calculations to be done but, as with everything, there are trade-offs because of latency in the in-world/out-world communications. I'll invite you to the group to save the hassle of having to do a find and things. If anybody else wants an invite just shout 
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William Withnail
Gentleman Adventurer
Join date: 11 Sep 2004
Posts: 154
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Gecco 2005
05-20-2005 13:50
Is anyone planning on attending GECCO 2005? There are a couple of posters about swarm behaviour.
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Roseann Flora
/wrist
Join date: 7 Feb 2004
Posts: 1,058
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05-21-2005 03:11
From: Hiro Queso Now I have myself thinking of another cool idea, a Jurrasic Park sim!!! hey I love the ideea lol....I'm thinking The Flintstones myself lol 
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Seth Kanahoe
political fugue artist
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,220
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05-21-2005 06:48
Late to this interesting thread. Haven't there been a few programs that have tried use evolution and other biological characteristics as a way to achieve artificial intelligence? One I remember is Tierra, website here: http://www.his.atr.jp/~ray/tierra/ the purpose of which is "to use evolution by natural selection in a medium of the digital computer to generate complex and intelligent software." Eventually, the "organisms" in this software achieve a sort of "social" awareness. Or from Wikipedia: "The basic Tierra model has been used to experimentally explore in silico the basic processes of evolutionary and ecological dynamics. Processes such as the dynamics of punctuated equilibrium, host-parasite co-evolution and density dependent natural selection are amenable to investigation within the Tierra framework."
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William Withnail
Gentleman Adventurer
Join date: 11 Sep 2004
Posts: 154
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Spore
05-21-2005 20:02
From: Moopf Murray I've been reading recently about Will Wright's latest "game" called Spore - this takes modelling evolution in PC Games to a whole new level and sounds very intriguing. There's a good article and screen shots of it here: http://www.gamespy.com/articles/595/595975p1.htmlOh My God! That looks fantastic! It almost seems too good to be true.
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Moopf Murray
Moopfmerising
Join date: 7 Jan 2004
Posts: 2,448
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05-22-2005 11:14
From: William Withnail Oh My God! That looks fantastic! It almost seems too good to be true. Doesn't it! It will be really interesting to see just how "free" the evolution is. If it's as free as what I've been reading suggests, it's going to be a real step forward. BTW, we're up to 10 members of the group now. 5 more and we can setup a forum here for it. Just PM or IM me if you want an invite, or look up 'Artificial Life' in the group search in Finder.
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Hiro Queso
503less
Join date: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,753
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05-22-2005 11:20
From: Moopf Murray Doesn't it! It will be really interesting to see just how "free" the evolution is. If it's as free as what I've been reading suggests, it's going to be a real step forward.
BTW, we're up to 10 members of the group now. 5 more and we can setup a forum here for it. Just PM or IM me if you want an invite, or look up 'Artificial Life' in the group search in Finder. I read it this morning, very cool! So, do you think Wright will join our group? 
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Surina Skallagrimson
Queen of Amazon Nations
Join date: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 941
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05-23-2005 00:26
From: Hiro Queso I read it this morning, very cool! So, do you think Wright will join our group?  Prolly, but using an alt... Maybe one of his Linden accounts 
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-------------------------------------------------------- Surina Skallagrimson Queen of Amazon Nation Rizal Sports Mentor
-------------------------------------------------------- Philip Linden: "we are not in the game business." Adam Savage: "I reject your reality and substitue my own."
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Moopf Murray
Moopfmerising
Join date: 7 Jan 2004
Posts: 2,448
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05-25-2005 07:04
From: Surina Skallagrimson Prolly, but using an alt... Maybe one of his Linden accounts  Well it would be good if he could join up now, as we only need one more person in order to request a group forum. 
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Moopf Murray
Moopfmerising
Join date: 7 Jan 2004
Posts: 2,448
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05-26-2005 05:07
The BBC have just put up an article about Will Wright's Spore: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4576855.stmBy the way, a request has now been put in for a group forum as we have enough members 
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Moopf Murray
Moopfmerising
Join date: 7 Jan 2004
Posts: 2,448
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05-26-2005 12:19
Last post here. Just wanted to let people know that we now have a group forum for the Artificial Life group: /191/1.html
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Venturi Muromachi
Registered User
Join date: 22 Apr 2005
Posts: 23
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05-26-2005 13:26
From: Seth Kanahoe Late to this interesting thread. Haven't there been a few programs that have tried use evolution and other biological characteristics as a way to achieve artificial intelligence? One I remember is Tierra, website here: http://www.his.atr.jp/~ray/tierra/ the purpose of which is "to use evolution by natural selection in a medium of the digital computer to generate complex and intelligent software." Eventually, the "organisms" in this software achieve a sort of "social" awareness. Or from Wikipedia: "The basic Tierra model has been used to experimentally explore in silico the basic processes of evolutionary and ecological dynamics. Processes such as the dynamics of punctuated equilibrium, host-parasite co-evolution and density dependent natural selection are amenable to investigation within the Tierra framework." That I can tell Tierra was a failure. That I can find there was no final report produced for the Distributed Tierra experiment. --v
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