What gives you the right to do this?

You said it. Ther emay be hope for you yet.



I have been called worse by better people than you , or, at least, more apparently intelligent. You see, you didn't refute my statement at all. I did not try to refute yours - because you made no argument. OTOH, I did respond to an obviously trollish post with a reasoned argument (your ownassessment of your post - "a very charged message -- proof that you intention was to troll, not to discuss anything).

I don't need to make a case for myself.... my parents did that.. or did you sleep through biology class in high school?

I could care less if you acknowledge anything. By not doing so, you only show your own bias, ignorance and predisposition to only one perspective.

Sweets...you obviously attained your bachelor's degree and quite. I'm related to some of the Jupiter Island folk so you can talk all the shit you want...I do know first hand. Think what you want, those on the inside know. But you are still cute.

i did acknowledge something. i acknowledged you believe that america has the right to commit atrocities against civilians when it serves its purpose. rationalize it how you like, the united states contravened international law and targeted civilian populations in ww2 and in vietnam with unconventional warfare. it would not be surprising if it was done again, even if it does not settle well in the collective conciousness of americans.



that should tell you something about yourself, although i didn't actually call you anything. if intelligent people are admittedly telling you you have problems, maybe you have problems.

note: i won't actually give credence to assertions that america used chemical weapons in iraq unless i see it in a reputable newspaper.

I have no clue what you are referring to.. the first sentence is incomplete and there are numerous "Jupiter Islands"... so.. care to make a coherent post?

"I do know" Know what? How to tie your shoes? You haven't provided any evidence of that so far.

Who's on the inside if what? If you are on the inside of a paper bag, may I suggest that you take out your cell phone and dial 911? That could help.... either to get you out, or to make a coherent post. Your choice.

No Korg, I did not ask anyone to prove a negative. Please read this sentence again:



I simply pointed out that there seems to be an absence of reporting on these networks regarding deaths that we both agree are likely if not inevitable.



As I said before, the particular bias or agenda of a news organization can often be perceived by what it chooses to report and what it chooses to leave out.

I did acknowledge that it was possible that the reporter's sources were untruthful, something you have chosen to ignore, but I would think that such claims are at least worthy of investigation. If the possibility of such behavior by the troops of your country is of no concern to you, well that's your business, and it would seem that Fox and CNN feel that it is irrelevant as well.

I suggest that you stand in front of the mirror and read your second statement to yourself. I am intelligent and I am telling you that you DO have problems.

Your first paragraph is .... how shall I say it differently than I have before... ah, the hell with that.. horseshit sums it up best. Your last phrase indicates that you are omnisicience - or believe you are. Thus, the prior garbage is "understandable" from that perspective. Unfortunately for you, no known evidenve exists in the academic world of which I am a part that says anyone has ever been omniscient or globaly aware of all other people's thoughts on a single subject, much less this one. So, I suggest you go talk with some of the parents of the boys who were lost during WW2 and ask them whether the dropping of the bomb was justified or not.... Ask the survivors of the Death March in Bataan. Ask the comfort women used and abused by the Japanese all over SE Asia, China and Manchruai during their occupations. And if you think that those opinions might be a bit biased, and they probably are, go do a little research on the Papal response to the bomb's use back then. They never said it was the wrong thing to do... hmmm, intersting, isn't that?

Be against the bomb all you want. Tossing in such a reference in this context is trollish. It's swatting a fly with a bomb. That is why you are a troll. I am just mean. You are a troll.

Exactly! That is what I always ask people to do. Always question!

I visit various news sources from all over on a daily basis. I read the American Leftist press as well as the Conservative Press. I listen to Rush and I listen to Howard Stern. I visit Aljazeera, the BBC, the Pakistan News Service, El Universal from Mexico City, and various other online sources of information from around the world.

Each, has its own editorials and particular point of view on what goes own around the world. Many of them, see black when its actually gray, others see the same thing as white.

Most people get their news from a single source and there lies the problem. They believe what Sam Donalson, or Dan Rather tells them as if it was the undisputable truth.

The first target revolutionaries go after is radio, the newspapers, and tv so they can broadcast their view of events. Totalitarian governments use the media extensively to brain wash people. They know the power of the media to shape people's opinions.

I finding intriguing that in the US, where we have freedom of the press, people themselves give up their right to be informed, by tuning to a single source of information. That results in a highly biased point of view.

At work I listen to both the Howard crowd and the O'Reilly crowd talk. Their view of the world is limited to what those two say in their shows. They don't question what they are told. And these are so called 'educated' people!

So I urge all, take the time and objectively read what other news sources have to say. The farther from your current political views, the better. You will find a lot of it is simply ridiculous, but you will also find many common points.

Go outside of the American press. The Internet allows you to do that!

Free your mind. That is the best contribution you can make to a better world.

- T -

The first sentence is not incomplete you are an idiot. Seeing as how your manner of speaking is akin to that of a sophmore or junior in college, look up Jupiter Island love try Haggerson or Bush with it. The need to lash out rather than prove your own point of view is evidence alone of your insignificance and lack of intellectual fortitude. Your obvious misinterpretation of the innerworkings of the government speaks volumes so please do not try to help me "find my way" the last thing I need is an idiot lemming leading me to certain death. I know many far more educated than yourself who are willing to rely on facts.

LOL.. thanks... best laugh all day so far.

"obvious misinterpretation of the inner workings" of what? Of the intelligence field - in the military? in the US government? Lol. You haven't got a cllue.

No Korg you havn't a clue...you do not have a single clue about humanity or what is actually going on. Do you really for a second think this war is about anything other than the continuation of the pipeline that the saudi's and hillbilly Bush family own (my fam has a stake in it as well). You, my friend, are the moron. I do know the devastation caused by union carbide I do understand why the fight for kuwaite was necessary and the oil drive was imperitave, my family has been there you self-aggrandizing prick. You think you know it all and that the world was an oyster which you shucked exposing the true form. You have no idea. Talk all you want love but try to find those that made it happen...if you cannot I will take you to the club one weekend and you can meet them face to face.

You see my grandfather was friends with Prescott and if you do not understand Jupiter Island then you really cannot make an argument for the Bush's or for the war. I summered there.

let's try that again korg:

if that is the case, then you should take note of it. after all, intelligent people seem to be calling you bad things.


what is my problem? i don't question your intelligence, you've demonstrated it often enough, but quite often your reason is flawed by your military conditioning and your foolish patriotism.


look either you are for law and justice or you are for power and justification. you can't have your cake and eat it too. that is all i'm saying.

hiroshima nagasaki - the shame of america - was an attack on civilians with unconventional weapons. it contravened international law. you can not make a case for why dropping nuclear weapons on civilians was lawful or just. what you can do is rationalize it. the contradiction is that civil society like america is idealized to by law and justice.

Korg is making me feel much better about my families actions in Africa, India and West Virginia. I suppose that since they were covered up by the press they are ok.

If you are obtusely making reference to the conspiracy theory that the invasion of Iraq was for financial gain by key Republicans you are no longer discussing the thread... I won't indulge in your paranoid fantasy world and "go there" with you - at least not here an now.

As for Inion Carbide/Bhopal, my father was there as a chemical engineer at the time. I have as much good second-hand knowledge of what happened there as anyone I would guess... but so f*ing what? Has nothing to do with Iraq. Any other reference to UC in this thread is also unresponsve to the news story... so.. toss that out too.

I have no idea of what? Your self-delusion that anyone really cares about your self-pity and guilt about your implied reference to your family's wealth and connections? No. There you are correct. I have neither a clue nor do I care... You are obviously out of touch with them - at least on this issue.

I never made an argument "for Bush or for the war" you ignoramus. Never. Not once. Check the archives. I have always said we should not have gone in... either time, you sanctimoniouos pissant. But you probably glossed over that... or saw my name atop a post and failed to read more than a line or two.

I also never defended Bush, per se - either one. So your assumptions about me, my politics and my point o fdeparture for argumentation's sake is obviously flawed.

To summarize.. pack sand. Stay on topic. And be ready to be called on your ridiculousness in your posts.

I dont understand how a human who values his life and the lives of his friends, family and people around him can feel this way.

Nope. Name calling is not equal to "truth". My evaluation of your opinion is less than my evaluation of them and their intellect when I compare what I know of them to what you have shown in posts here. I rate them higher - just because one unintelligent person says the same thing as a group of intelligent people doe not mean I shoudl value the unitelligent person's opinion in the same way as the other people's opinions. You just chose the same rhetorical strategy - name calling.... absolutely pointless with me... Then again, you are apparently too unintelligent to "get" that.

That's right. You don't. Leave it at that.

Nope. Name calling is not equal to "truth". My evaluation of your opinion is less than my evaluation of them and their intellect when I compare what I know of them to what you have shown in posts here. I rate them higher - just because one unintelligent person says the same thing as a group of intelligent people doe not mean I shoudl value the unitelligent person's opinion in the same way as the other people's opinions. You just chose the same rhetorical strategy - name calling.... absolutely pointless with me... Then again, you are apparently too unintelligent to "get" that.


How would you know that? How would you KNOW that my "military conditioning" affected my outlook? What was that conditioning? Were you there? Are you generalizing perhaps? Or are you assuming? And if you are, then, please, do not try to make an "ass" out of "u" and "me"... You do yourself a disservice...well, maybe not... perhaps you are not intelligent enough to understand that. I am sorry.. I don't want you to strain or overtax yourself.


Who says it's an either or situation? I can't be for supporting the President and supporting the troops and think we should not have gone there in the first place? BTW, I can have my cake and eat it too... I do that all the time.


I do not consider that a shameful incident - or two. I am quite happy we did use the bomb to end the war. I think we were justified. There is not, and never has been, any "international law" that all nations and other political entities inthe world have EVER agreed to at the same time. None. If you can prove that statement incorrect, please do. Otherwise, the reference is idiotic - there was no law preventing the use of a weapon which did not exist prior to its use in Hiroshima or Nagasaki. I already made the case. You don't buy it. Fine. We disagree and I think you are stupid because of your not agreeing. So what? Doesn't change a thing. Your last statement there shows your personal bias yet again - a search for an "ideal world" with "perfect" behavior as you define it. I don't do that.

I expect pain and suffering in the world. I repeat. I expect it. I also expect war, diseases we can't cure, little infants dying due to lack of food, and hypocrisy by national and international leaders. That's just the way I see the world. So what? You tilt against the windmill of the unattainable ideal and I deal with reality as it is demonstrated to me on a daily bais. By my measured opinion, you are the fool, not I. I am not the smartest person in the world, but I don't waste time ranting about the unchangeable nor worrying about conspiracies. I also do not worry about what people long dead did... Why waste the time I have on this earth?

edited to correct for missing closed quotes indicators

Well this one's gone up in flames.

*Heads over to the 'Methods of maintaining civil discussion' thread in General.*

dear korg,
i haven't called you anything yet. as you insist i have called you names, i will now.
you are a moron.
love,
jauani

edit:
i also wanted to add, by the intensity and belligerence of your response and your constant impression of being verbally attacked, i question your sanity.

Ummm.. remember this in this thread?

That is equivalent to calling me reprehensible.
Then, just above - your last missive, you call me insane and a moron.

Then again. It's not in this thread alone that you and I have clashed.

But let's deal with your idiocies as you have listed them -
According to Webster's - moron - A person whose intellectual development proceeds normally up to about the eighth year of age and is then arrested so that
there is little or no further development.

Uh... I think that I can demonstrate that people of eminent academic repute dispute your ignorant and ill-conceived assertion as to my intellectual development. Obviously, your personal assessment of my intellectual ability is extremely valueless to me.

As for insanity, again from Webster's - insane - afflicted with or characteristic of mental derangement.
You may argue that I am deranged - however, as I so often point out, I do deal with reality as I observe it. That you dispute my reality and definition of it does not mean that **I** am the insane one here. On the contrary... I put that onus of proof on you - I contend that you are the one not in touch with reality.

Finally, reprehensible.....defined as bringing or deserving severe rebuke or censure. Well, go for it.. oh wait. You have. I am hurt. I wil never recover from the rebuke you have inflicted on my weak psyche.

I still say that you, my very much unloved forummate, are a troll - at least in this thread.

Thousands left Fallujah before the attack anybody still there was either a combatant or aiding a combatant.

Both are worthy military targets



What the Japanese did in China, SE Asia, and Korea during WWII made our two little nukes almost a joke.

1> that is not equivalent. don't try to look for insult where none exists.
2> after being told i am stupid and an idiot several times over based on your delusions of genius, i don't think i crossed any lines you hadn't already erased.

and then there are threads i agreed with you 100%. i would say you clash and hold grudges with everyone who disagrees with your views on anything and everything.


hahahaha
you should go look up irony in the dictionary now. then look up marionette.

note: i didn't actually call you insane, i only questioned your sanity having drawn no conclusion. but with each diatribe of inflamitory nonsense you post, i inch closer towards an answer.

good point phil. the japanese government apologized to south asian nations for their inhumane actions in times of war. the american government has not apologized to the japanese for unnecessarily dropping nuclear bombs.

my point is the american government is not above employing weapons of mass destruction, chemical weapons, assassins, killing civilians purposely, revoking internationally agreed human rights etc etc. it's been done unrepentently in the past and therefore it's not a big revelation if it happens again. hiroshima nagasaki are just an extreme example.

i'm also adding that these are immoral actions by the institutional complex. the ends do not justify the means in a civil society. society based on laws and justice compromises itself when it does not try to live up to its ideal.

And who is the puppeteer? What evidence do you have that I am not in control of myself or my thoughts?

Asserting the I am a marionette implies I am being manipulated.... therefore you must know who you think is doing the manipulating. Name him/her/it/them.

Wait.. let me guess. The current Republican Administration? Sorry. I held the same views on war and supporting any President in office that I currently hold long before 1990. So, that argument falls flat even before you think to type it out.

I have repeatedly said that I supported Clinton as Commander in Chief - while he was in office - despite my belief that he massively misused and abused the services he himself avoided in such a chickenshit manner. Despite his own passivist foreign policy, I supported Carter - wimp that he was - while he commanded troops. OTOH, I violently disagreed with his decisions on when, how and where to use them - but not to the point that I was a conspiracy theorist as so many in these forums appear to be.

Jauani.... your rhetorical style is a bit more subtle than mine - I come straight ahead and say outright that a spade is a spade... you often use innuendo and implication. So, your position with respect to my posts is fairly obvious to anyone with any knowledge of the language and semantics. I make a pretty good living telling people how to do just what you do - deliberately or not - so I recognize the technique for what it is. With other people it might be effective. With me it's pointless.

You entered the thread with a two word troll... Not even a phrasal construction. Doing so is thrusting a symbol forward - not making an argument. Symbols are ambiguous at best in their interpretation - in this case, pacifist and many non-pacifists have diametrically opposed interpretations of the symbol. Your timing appears to have been obvious - and the intent can be derived from both the timing and the particular symbols you choose to troll with. You were not agreeing with anyone who believes force is necessary - in this or any other situation - by interjecting that symbol into this discussion. That's pretty much not arguable in any logical fashion as far as I can see. So, by distracting people from the original discussion, not only have you hijacked the thread, you apparently intended for your post to be responded to - or you just like to hear yourself talk. Either way, you haven't contributed one coherent thought about the original post/issue. That is the epitome of trolldom - not responding to the original post/issue in the thread. That's not name calling on my part - it's defining by use of an example - in this case you and your actions. Thus, you are a troll.

That you repeatedly accuse those not in agreement with you on political matters - in other threads - of failing to think for themselves could be indicative of an inability to articulate your own opinion. Rather than merely speak in an abstract manner, grow a pair of balls and say something straight out --- or do us all a favor and shut up.

Edited to add: your defintion of "immoral" is not articulated - even if it was, who's to say anyone else would agree with it? And whose standards for morality are we to measur actions by? Yours? Why? Who made you God? Mine? You won't agree to that. So there's an empty statment - and it's at the apparent crux of your argument.

Wow, this one really imploded. Oki calm down a little there guys. Korg you're making some good points but it's getting swallowed in hostility and verbosity (no offense).

Well to answer the original question posted, perhaps this helps answer the question:

"...several dozen Ukrainian protesters stood across the street, waving their country's flag and calling on Bush to press for a fair election result. "Will President George W. Bush now stand up to Russia's blatant imperial overreach in Ukraine?" wrote Michael Balahutrak of Houston in literature distributed at the gathering."

This is only "several dozen", but perhaps it's hinting at something greater. Maybe there are people out there that actually want the US to get involved and "police the world" during times of crisis. Lots of people love to talk about how much damage US policy has caused, but nobody talks about the positive things--especially in other countries. If I was in Ukraine and this was going on, I sure wouldn't mind a little western pressure on the situation.

Bush is damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't. If he doesn't speak up, and this fraud is real, the election may stand as is or violence may break out. Obviously bad. If he does, he's accused of "interfering" and told to mind his own business--plus violence may break out anyway. This is a typical situation, I don't know how he can stand it.

Heck I couldn't even stand reading this entire thread...