Justice ?

If we want to whinge, lets whinge about important things.

Like what's this I hear of people being refused any explanation other than a bald TOS quote when they are suspended or even kicked off?

Dont know if this is true, but if it is, it is a REAL matter for concern. Without at least minimum judicial respect, this WILL remain just a game. Would it be possible, for instance, to eliminate a business rival by bumping him a few times in a crowd, and filing abuse reports? Could he be out, and suffer real financial loss, without even knowing what happened, let alone a chance to defend himself?

I understand how difficult and expensive it would be at this stage of the game for Lindens to fully adjudicate every potential dispute, but at least a proper explanation, and the reading of one appeal email, would seem to be the minimum.

Then, unless there is no doubt (taking account of previous independent reports), no conviction.

These problems will grow as SL grows, and sooner or later will have to be addressed.

How shall we eventually appoint judges for the SL courtroom? Down the line it well may have to come. Think about it - it wont be long before some people's livelihoods may be at stake, and the food for their childrens mouths. Once we're there..................

There was an article in Wired about this. There's a thread in the feature suggestions you should check out if you're seriously interested..

/13/de/26625/1.html

I've posted this before, but I'll post it again. Despite the way LL promotes this game as a way to make RL money, the fact is that it is still nothing more than Monopoly money. Trading for real US Dollars is nothing more than trading the colorful Monopoly money for real US$.

I realize that LL would probably like to see a real economy grow out of SL, but until they change the TOS clause quoted below, it's not a good idea to rely on L$ to pay for "people's livelihoods" and, "the food for their children(')s mouths." Because it could be gone tomorrow, and you might not qualify for unemployment benefits. Though, maybe you could say you were self-employed? I wonder what you do to prove that if SL were to go offline or reset all your L$ tomorrow?

The clause:


Oh, and anyone can abuse report anyone else at anytime. No bumping is needed. But I don't believe the Lindens go by the word of one person. You could create alt. accounts, but even then they may look at chat/IM logs. I've witnessed a Linden investigating (in-world) after an abuse report before. You also mentioned that one could bump a competitor and file an abuse report for that... well, the bumped files the report, not the bumpee in my experience. In the end, it's totally possible that this situation could arise, but it's my belief that the story would eventually come out in the wash afterwords.

Finally, Philip has suggested that he'd rather let the world evolve on it's on... and that he's not even sure what it would be like a year from now. But he has hopes of what it will be. So it's very possible that a court system could be put in place, but it wouldn't be until after it's absolutely proven necessary.

What the fuck is Whinge?

whinge = whine. I dated an aussie girl for a while and she would always say whinge where I would have said whine. We both thought the other was a nutcase for saying it wrong, hehe.

Chalky,

<<If we want to whinge, lets whinge about important things.>>

Had you been here for longer you would know that this subject has been debated to death on the forums, and the Lindens should know by now that the majority of posters find this practice highly objectionable. Nothing has been done about it, so presumably they are not interested in our opinions on the matter.

I would suggest that if you wish to foster debate, a slightly less patronising tone would work wonders.

I have a feeling he has Along with an awful lot of recent forum newbs who seem to have a lot to say.

Though I do wish some would start working out what the search function is for.

The problem is the Lindens suffer from a bad case of "Overlypoliticallycorrectitis". It is a disease that seems to run rampant in California, especially in the Bay area. I suggest we notify the NIH. Maybe they can fix the problem.

People already do, the Lindens are working against this not for it. It won't be a problem in the future.

Chalky...This is a point that needs reiteration as the problems have not been solved. If people were not allowed to bring up ideas already discussed in the forums...well, there would be little to discuss. It is not fair to suggest that forum newbies should not post opinions or concerns just because someone else posted something along the same lines a long time ago.

Yeah, its yet another thread on the subject....but the subject has NOT been adressed satisfactorily yet by the powers-that-be.

So, until the people that are pissed off that this *extremely unfair* policy is in place get some kind of a resolution -either "ok, we'll change it" (and then actually DO it) or "screw yourself we're not changing it", you'll probably see these threads pop up every now and then. The fact that a few ppl are sick of seeing the subject doesnt make it go away.
this isnt like the economic threads where you can just say "ok, valid, but we need a dedicated forum for it."

unless.......ha. i wonder if complaints on this subject are numerous enough yet for us to start pushing for a "why cant we find out why we were suspended" forum

Isis,

I wasn't objecting to subjects being discussed more than once on the forum; what I objected to was the assumption that the poster was the only person to have considered the issue. The tone sounded patronising, IMO.

In this particular case, the matter was discussed at such length, at with such passion, and with such unanimity of feeling that it's clear that if it hasn't been addressed up until now, it never will be.

Several months ago, we were promised after much protest about this subject that there would be more transparency in this process, that people would at least know why they were being disciplined, and the net result is NOTHING HAS CHANGED. This is unacceptable. As has been pointed out many many times, the aribtrary way in which discipline is handled in SL, combined with no explanation when it happens is pathetic. At a minimum, a player who has been disciplined should know their exact transgression, and they should know what TOS it violated, specifically. THere also needs to be an appeals process. I have to admit I am disappointed that this has not changed at all, after Robin Linden posted several months ago that they were working to change this. How long does it take for you to change not disclosing why you are punishing someone?

Yes, of course, as any of you can check, I'm just a little baby noob at SL.

But I'm not a little baby noob at life, or at business, or at justice, or at lots of other things. And this is why I see no reason to adopt a tone of crawling humility here just to avoid accusations of a "patronising tone". That is not welcoming, not friendly, and not fair.

Yes, of course I was aware this problem had been discussed before. How else could I have known that the problem even existed ?

My reasons for raising it again were twofold.

1. I have just arrived in SL and, after the initial "gobsmacked" reaction, have been thinking hard about its potential significance, and how much I want to get involved. This justice issue is critical to both, and may be what puts me off. The only way SL will grow (which must be what the Lindens want) is for people like me to come, look, and decide to stay and contribute. So, as a sample of such people, my reaction should be of concern to them. I posted to let them know they may well be pushing customers away wuth this practice.

2. In my experience, when something is wrong, and there is no eagerness to put it right NAG. Keep on raising the topic again and again until they finally realise their customer base is serious about this.

My opinion is , the Lindens are potentially riding a tiger. They seem a high-powered bunch, so I guess they understood what they were getting into, but this is just one of the issues that eventually will become unavoidable if SL is to go on and up.

I'm not, of couse, asking for anything sophisticated yet (thats years away surely). Just a bit of reasonable explanation, and a small voice in reply.

And maybe the right to have a small voice here without myself being patronised with accusations of being patronising.

Of course you all know hugely more about SL than I do, but I intend to learn fast if I stay.

Be nice, guys, please ?