How could SL go open source and be profitable?

My thoughts are that content protection could likely well turn out to be a red herring.

You can't protect prim configurations (you can grab these from the stream / video code) and we get away with passing around compiled executables in RL so why can't we pass around compiled executables in SL?

In someways, by doing string checks, you can do better content protection if we could actually see the byte-code of other people's software (ie: who's stealing my open source code?)

So, assuming content protection isn't necessary, what other challenges do we have?

We have a need for specialized hosting and an open source version of Havok - (or havok2) and then there is the speedtree stuff they are thinking of adding.

Ok, assuming they integrate Crystal Space to take over havok/speedtree, and reduce the need for specialized hosting somehow (less need for an asset server, I guess, other than that don't ask me)..

.. then how do they make money?

My thought is to take a percentage of every financial transaction and/or to charge membership in the root servers similar to what the registeries do. They'll take this profit and use it to guide and direct the open source development of SecondLife.

Ok, perhaps this idea sucks. How would you take SL open source and be profitable?


The other idea is to do the specialized hosting. However, if LL goes down this path, I think they will rapidly find out that if SL is popular that they stand no chance whatsoever of competing in this field.

Web hosting is one of the roughest and toughest industries to compete in. Some extremely savvy and brilliant people are in this field and they have long careers with very significant experience.

Between the politics of BGP servers, battling DOS attacks and ramping up to the necessary economy of scale, LL would quickly find themselves squeezed out of the marketplace.

Are there any other open source projects that can be studied for lessens learned and best practices?

The one that comes to my mind is JBoss, but I don't know how profitable they really are. But I guess the fact that they are still alive is indicator that they're doing something right.

Step One: Release the client as open-source.

Step two: Release the server software on a licensing basis (ie you pay Llabs for the right to use their (closed source) server software to host your OWN sims on a separate colo... it would use the same asset server and all that though)

Sim hosting provider. They say "hey, we've been hosting sims for 3 years, we know what we're doing. Here's our price (same price as before).

Continue adding sims into the "main grid" for us poor folks.

Ta-da, profit.

PLUS they don't need to worry about developing the client, as thousands of people would be chomping at the bit to do the work for them.

But, maybe they could continue an "official" fork -- I believe Linus does this wit Linux?

LF

Ahhh, so your solution isn't to take it completely open source.

I buy that, it's a good compromise and it seems like the most probable course of events.

The question may get asked though when DynamicCrystalSpace gets released and LL is forced to open source the server software. How would they do it?

Or do you think that'll never happen? Or do you think they would be screwed at that point?

Wait until the service develops a huge userbase (read: 1 million plus users), then pull a SL Google/Service Provider incentive.

- Offer adspace on the connecting grid. (already in use by residents, but what about large contracts?)
- Charge users to maintain servers/hook sims to the main grid.
- Integrate a Second Life Google-like algorithm for searching the metaverse.
- Start selling content/plugins using the system.

Given the potential level for integration to the internet and complexity of interaction, it all depends on what final business model you see LL taking. Microsoft of the Metaverse? LLoogle? Somewhere in between? Something else?

PArdon my ignorance, but what does CrystalSpace have to do with Linden Labs? LLabs has coded a unique, dynamic, fully-streaming engine from the ground up. CrystalSpace, last I checked, was used mostly for pre-compiled environements (first person/third person shooters, MMORPGs, etc.)

I would wager that the SL engine is much more complex, robust, and better suited FOR SL than CrystalSpace ever could be.

LF

Blaze asked for a followup here to his post in General->"More open-source metaverses...?":

Well first of all, let me answer your question directly but briefly.

If SL is open-sourced, LL can merge all FOSS improvements into its commercial product as easily as anyone else, so it certainly needn't be left behind. And unlike the competitors that would inevitably spring up running the same code, it has an infrastructure and management/development tools that the competition doesn't have, not to mention a server farm or two already running. So, it would start ahead of the game, and if it stays focussed on staying ahead, I see no reason why it can't remain in the lead, while benefitting from community development.

But why ask this at all? Andrew quoted or paraphrased Philip's position as:

And Philip himself just a few posts up in that thread wrote:

Given the above, why revisit the question? If a business person of Philip's acumen can see a revenue stream, I'm not about to naysay it when my competence and interest is in the technology alone, and in its resulting freedoms/capabilities.

I have absolutely no doubt that, as happened with the Internet, business people will find ten thousand ways of making money within a distributed and open metaverse. By all means criticize me for pure unreasoned belief in the ingenuity of people ... but you'd be unwise to bet against it.

Yes, you're right. It is.

However, someone may adapt CrystalSpace to be used for dynamic environments (I'm talking hypothetically), in which case SL could have a serious open source competitor on its hands.

Why do you want open source sooo bad.

I say NAY on the open source client, I want a downloadable version of the server software, so I can use on my own machines. However I think minimum criterias should be taken in to account.

1. Minimum specs for tha machine
   
2. Minimum 100mbit connectivity
   
3. Maximum average 120ms ping to asset server
   

Something like this. PLus a fee of like... 10,20,50,100 USD a month to connect to the asset server. Also have the 100USD setup fee. NON-LL sims cannot be connected to the main land.

This is an option I would want to see!

Well one advantage possessed by CS over SL's engine is that CS's developers *are* starting to push work out to the programmable GPU shader hardware on our graphics cards.

That's going to give CS a collosal speed boost and supreme eye candy, the more they work at it. How's that CS work progressing anyway, Blaze? It was many months ago since I last looked.

LL in contrast ... well, they're not even bothering to comment on the issue, I guess it's sensitive. I'm sure they want to use that technology, so I guess it's just an matter of not being able to find staff with the right skills. Perhaps they should seccond someone from nVidia for a few months in a consultancy role.

I think we have different goals, Nexus.

We're working towards an open metaverse of distributed but interacting scalable virtual worlds, and we want SL to go open source so that its development can be fast-tracked instead of making a snail look nippy.

You appear to want to make some money by running your own grid. Chalk and cheese.

Hey Morgaine,

I missed Philip's posts, thanks for quoting them.

Yes, there are a thousand ways. I guess this is just a random thought experiment, which every post in these forums is.

If you are CEO of LindenLabs in charge of showing a return to your VC backing, what would be your strategy for taking SL open source? I like Lordfly's .. it's my favorite approach.

However, worse case scenario is that someone comes along and open sources a server as well. What's your backup plan? What's your strategy to ensure that you have a product offering that can compete with that?

Tcoz offered some ideas, but they didn't seem very high ROI. I think Jeffrey has some good ideas as well, probably most on the same page as mine, which is leveraging your reputation to run the financial and technical infrastructure.

Where would you focus your efforts?

I say abolish the teen grid in favor of a commercial grid.

Open source, mouselook only, basic account fee and a fee for everything rezzed, uploaded or scripted. Browser level and Creator level memberships.

Commercial grids would have not have economies in themselves, because they pay for a service at a flat rate. Simple.

As it is, SL only takes a few minutes to download and install. A FOSS version can come alot more compact version. While being open source, the server still controls which tools and inventories are available to the client.

I'm seeing talk about distirbuting sim servers, and the client, but not the asset server.

Without a distributed asset server there is still a single point of failure, no truly Internet-style failover/redundancy. But it still needs to be IP/DMCA-'safe' (or as close to that as possible).

Anyone have any ideas for this? I've seen a couple in the other thread, but not certain if such would be profitable as well. Worst case LL can still own them but have them in a couple time zones mirroring each other.

Well, my basic assumption is that you would 'home your avatar' to a SIM which would become the asset server for you avatar.

Any textures / sounds / animations / etc used on the SIM would be duplicated on that particular sim.

Any avatar textures / sounds /animations / basically your inventory would be homed to a particular SIM you were either 'born' on or set your home to.

There are other solutions which would reduce the redundancy but I think this problem could be solved without *too* much effort.

One very human element that I have seen time and time again would be the support levels, and the unique rapport we enjoy with Linden Lab on a personal basis. It's occurred to me that some who are new to SL and have come from WOW or EQ2 or whatever, find it very odd that the employees of LL are so close and in touch with the Residents.

I had a good tangential discussion -- on a lark, just chillaxin' -- about related issues lately with some of SL's prominent scripters and technical mavens, and even they pointed out that the problem with open source a lot of the time is that it's accessible if you already know the innards of the pigeon, so to speak, but not much use to the "layavatar" without good documentation and human support. (NOT that I'm leaving out furries or other species in any way, since Torlop is a bunny, hehehe.) Sooo a lot of people get left out. Using a common Matrix analogy, there are a lot of minds to free, and I get a big kick out of watching people gravitate to SL after There or TSO and be amazed at the open-ended possibilities. It's a lot to take in, and constitute a large part of the unique experience.

So beyond business, smiles and hugs are always welcome.

Customer satisfaction, consumer happiness, etc.

Well, mozilla is open source but doesn't seem to suffer from that problem.

I think it's possible to create an install for an open source project which is user friendly.

Ideally, LL would chip in a certain degree of support so that it would be clear that they were the leads on this open source project.
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I agree! Mozilla is such an example, and of course I can't generalize. And it's a good point that LL should continue to guide . . . I would hate to see them get all faceless.

I fail to see the problem with both client and server being open.. You can release both the source to the client and server, the trick is to prevent unauthorized transfers of assets.

This means all client interaction to assets must be done through the server, and servers must be authorized to connect to their local asset server (this means the SL source can run multiple independent metaverses.)

Now Ideally there would be a way of packing up an object that you had full perms to and allowing the client to save it locally (ie. export form a server) and then import it to another server/cluster.

With some work you should even be able to have secure transfers between trusted asset servers. (unfortunately I can make sure that your object if it says its your object has not been modified... but I can't think of a way to make sure a evil server can't copy out and repack an objects data and still have the object data.. but at least if myself, and a friend wanted assets to travel between our mini-grids it would be easy to do)

If this where to happen I'd expect, if 2 larger metaverse entities that didn't want to allow transfers between there asset servers became into existence, that GOM and other banking agencies would have an interesting business of trading L$ between servers.

As for how SL would make money... the same way they already are, running this mock universe, ie. being a hosted service, and a trusted location for our buildings and products.

Also if I was only running one server with a mini game on it I'd want an llSendAgentToServer() call in a sphere or something. (then my embedded game could be on my (possible modified) server. And I could even use the fact that the players inventory only existed locally to my advantage. (lets say it was a small adventure game, the local L$ is the money you have in the game, as the items you can have are equipment and key items in the game)

I think a lot of this stems from the acknowledgement that we're all actually in this together - the only difference being the level of access one has and the willpower to make stuff happen. That's definitely a good feeling, and one that will (hopefully) endure.

Yeah, we're all in this together as long as we stick to the consensus and avoid discussing the other side of the issue. Cognitive dissonance is not allowed.

But, that's another story and I'll avoid hijacking the thread as long as everyone else does.

I cant imagine why LL's board of directors would have any desire to open source SL any time in the forseeable future.

And ultimately, thats the part that counts.

Well, Mitch is a major investor and Mitch is a major proponent of open source technologies. Similarly, Pierre is a pretty much into community based software.

The benchmark VC is a bit different. However. I think SL is fundamentally a community play, so open source software does make sense in a lot of ways.

Philip has said they plan to open source SL someday and that is a critical part of their business model. Do you think that doesn't count even if it is a couple of years away?

You lack imagination then (or information), and don't read much either, because there have been hundreds of posts detailing exactly that, not the least of which are from various Lindens themselves.

Presumably you haven't read the following recent items:
I guess you also can't imagine why IBM and Sun and a stellar cast of others are moving over to Open Source in ever greater amounts. Well let me give you a trio of hints:

1. in-house software development costs are extremely high, and they are recurring costs because software maintenance continues long after initial budgets run out.

1. no company can compete with 10 million open source developers out there, many of them extremely experienced professionals who earn more than some board directors.

1. harnessing open source development has a relatively small cost, because all the infrastructure for distributed development is already in place, cost free.

There are many other reasons too (Philip cites a good one), but it all adds up to one simple thing: it makes financial sense. And for companies, that's pretty important.