Community Standards: Tolerance

Okay, let me just come right out and say it.

I DON'T HATE ANYBODY. In fact, I have been astonished by the way people in-game have assumed me to think of them because here I was thinking they were great people and they thought I hated them. LOL... I don't hate anybody ... there are a few people on these forums who get on my nerves but I don't hate anyone, nor do I hate any people groups.

But just because I don't HATE any of you, doesn't mean I AGREE with real-world, first life activities and lifestyles and choices people make. I'm NOT going to go down that path right now, except to say, I don't intend to do so ever again as I did earlier. First life should remain first life. I don't have to agree with people's lifestyles in order to enjoy the game, or for that matter to enjoy being with all of you. Frankly, I'd love to shove all that stuff down the crapper and just have fun here in Second Life with it being the fun virtual world that it is.

But what will always be consistent with me, whether you like it or not, is that I am still a human being, and I'm not trading my moral standards for a game. When real-world violations of my standards come face to face with my moral standards, I will defend my moral standards, and I might even exercise my common law right to make mention of my disagreement with others' choices in life if they step on my standards' toes. So long as it does not become harassment and I treat everyone with respect (which does NOT mean respecting their choices or lifestyles), I am not about to apologize for that.

I respect the Community Standards (including "Tolerance" even though I will admit I borderline the Standards at times. However, hatred of any particular groups of people is just not my thing. For instance, if someone comes up to me and tells me that they're gay .. look, I don't agree with the notion that it's an in-born trait, but that doesn't mean I HATE the guy. I've had some gay friends... even had a gay roommate once. I'm all for people being who they are, I just don't agree with all things, that's all.

I understand the Community Standards' call for Tolerance, but there is a rather thick line between hatred and tolerance.

That said, I'm listening to opinions, but I ask that you please not attack me on this in this thread. And please stop making fun of my Christian faith, I won't go there in this thread and I would've been greatly hurt by previous posts of others ("thought about you, Jon, when i saw this Jesus butt plug"?) if I didn't know how to shrug it off. What I'm finding is that more people are intolerant of me than me of them, and I don't care, but please don't think me to be hateful. I don't hate any of you, and for those of you who live lifestyles contrary to my own, I hope we can develop some great in-world friendships. Just please don't complain if I complain about your doings (bringing 1st life lifestyles into 2nd life scenarios) and thereafter find something else to do. It is my right to complain and walk away. It is not enough to walk away silently; it's not fun to have to choose between having fun and keeping my standards (for myself), and perhaps (and I don't say "perhaps" sarcastically, as though I really meant "for sure" my expressed opinion is valid and as such some consideration of it should be considered.

I want to add that the reason for this post is because Linden Labs gave me notice about me expressing hatred toward real world people or people groups and thereby violating the Standards. NO other reason.

Well I think I might give you a lil insight here, First you said hate you for your opinions and in plain fact thats all they are opinions. I do not defend others actions due to I am just as guikty of Insulting you but that is all I admit guilt for but in essence you brought the lamb and slaughter upon thy own head. If you had in fact and indeed do respect others Lifestyles and agree to disagree then why would you even post the last post trying to get us to conform to your beliefs.
If we wish to follow your faith then we shall if don't then we won't all you do by preaching is push us away further and hate you more. Your path is not for preaching its about acceptence as all of us are to do WHETHER or not we aggree with what others do. To preach only shows lack of respect and so preach opinions shows lack of knowledge and wisdom. I may be young but I know quite a bit more then most give me credit I went to Christian schools and was raised to be one but I don't follow that belief for my own reasons which I will answer to no one for or feel that I have to. And in leaving that religion my eyes have seen much more then I was lead to believe I could I have learn truths and lies about god some which I will not go into here cus it is not my place to preach. I know what is right by me and what I must do to keep it that way and I have enough respect for others to keep my mouth shut unless they don't have respect for me.
Jon if maybe you practice a lil more control of what you preach and who you say it to it may save you a lot more anger and haterd in the future and insulting us infact which you did is not the key. No one is sayin you have to agree with our beliefs nor we agree with yours all anyone wants is repect and the plain generousty of not Forcing your beliefs where it is not wanted.

It's your right to complain, but the party you complain to has the right to answer back.
I think a lot of people have found an occasional event or place more racy than they personally prefer. Most just go elsewhere. Saying you don't approve of what they do is just going to alienate people. Again, you have the right to say what you wish, but be prepared for counter arguements.

Also, why isn't it enough to walk away silently, or, at the least, just say "I'm not into that kind of thing online"?

I'm not religious myself, but some of my RL friends are. My friend "Max" is an orthadox Jew. His religious convictions sometimes keep him from doing things his other friends do- for example, eating non-kosher food or seeing a movie friday night. If someone invited him to a Friday night lobster cookout he'd probably decline, perhaps saying it was against his religion. He would not say something like "I can't because I find your behavior- not you, of course, but your behavior abhorrent. Leviticus says don't eat anything gross like shellfish and commandment four clearly states to remember the sabbath and keep it holy, and partying on friday night* isn't holy." Also, to my knowledge, Max has never lobbied for a constitutional amendment to outlaw cheeseburgers or sweet n' sour pork, but I digress.

To be fair, I havn't seen much of you in game and therefore can't accuse you of giving a "I can't do that because it's abhorrent" speach. What goes on in game and how it's reported on the boards can be different. My point is someone can follow their religious convictins without alienating others.


*this is assuming the sabbath lasts between sunset on Friday and Saturday- the new testament promoted it to Sunday.

what fruit do you have to show?

Okay. I'll buy that! That's why I posted here... and I was prepared and am. But I got a notice from Linden saying I engaged in hatred activity. I simply don't get it.

"I'm not into that kind of thing...." That's EXACTLY what I was talking about when I said "complain". That's enough of a complaint, I can respect that, but I still don't think it's hateful or disrespectful to add remarks WHY.

Agreed. Actually I don't see a lot of alienation, though certainly a bit .. and I understand it, and I'm not complaining about that although it isn't my intent to alienate. But what made me start this thread was for some strange declarations that I have committed some hate crime. I deny that.

Jon, I hesitate to even post here because I don't want this to be perceived as flaming you....I am not. Just throwing my thoughts into the pot as you have asked.

I don't think you quite understand what tolerance means. It IS enough for you to just walk away...


tol·er·ance ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tlr-ns)
n.
The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others.


To me, that says you don't have to like it, but you must accept and respect it. Telling people why what they are doing is wrong in your eyes just isn't being tolerant, IMHO.

You are intitled to your opinions and beliefs, and by your post here, I take it you don't like it when others tell you why they think your thoughts are wrong.....why should you get to do that to them?

Might as well throw this in for the record....never met ya, and I don't hold anything against you for your beliefs.

That has to be the most non-insulting, constructive insight contrary to my prior opinion that I've seen in ages. *applause* thank you...

Focusing on the term "Tolerance", rather than Jon Morgan, definitely seems to me as more meaningful discussion.

(No, not being sarcstic..)

http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=tolerance

Main Entry: tol·er·ance
Pronunciation: 'tä-l&-r&n(t)s, 'täl-r&n(t)s
Function: noun
1 : capacity to endure pain or hardship : ENDURANCE, FORTITUDE, STAMINA
2 a : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own b : the act of allowing something : TOLERATION
3 : the allowable deviation from a standard; especially : the range of variation permitted in maintaining a specified dimension in machining a piece
4 a (1) : the capacity of the body to endure or become less responsive to a substance (as a drug) or a physiological insult with repeated use or exposure <immunological tolerance to a virus> <an addict's increasing tolerance for a drug> (2) : relative capacity of an organism to grow or thrive when subjected to an unfavorable environmental factor b : the maximum amount of a pesticide residue that may lawfully remain on or in food


Which dictionary did you get yours from?

BTW with THIS definition, it's one thing to ENDURE differing opinions, and respect those who have them, but it's another thing to respect--in my own mind and values--their lifestyles... I simply cannot do it. But that's neither here nor there... I don't HATE them, I just don't respect some others' lifestyles, though I endure them and I put up with them and I don't INSIST that they stop or anything like that. I simply disagree, endure the pain of disagreement, express my disagreement, and move on. Big deal. That is not hate.

Intolerance INSISTS on changing people. I don't do that. I am a conservative, but I am a conservative libertarian. I say let people live their lives--and I am willing to die to make sure you have the right to live the life you want to live--but I'm going to exercise my right to disagree openly with the choices that are made, without actually insisting on changing anyone. (I say this [I'm going to exercise my right to disagree openly] generically, not necessarily in the context of the game ...)

It's not hateful, but it is saying "Here, I don't agree with you, and to show you why I'm going to rub your nose in my religion for the tenth time this month. I don't care if you're fed up with hearing about how great my religion is, both from me and other people, you're going to listen whether you like it or not." And THAT is disrespectful.

I agree with this, and it doesn't change a thing. In this case it is not an issue of being merely disrespectful, though, it's one of harassment if you were to say "stop". I don't do that. In fact I would never tell someone more than once in-game why I disagree with anything, so why do you even comprehend such despicable actions as though I were guilty of doing it?

However, if you feel that that's what I've done in posting this thread, please know that I simply didn't understand why I was marked as "hateful" by LL and I shared my case because I wanted some insight (as well as hopefully to state my case for LL to read) .. NOT to preach at anyone.

Expressing your disapproval is where you go wrong Jon. That's an act of intolerance. You don't have to condone, and in your head you are welcome to think whatever you like, but when you voice your disapproval you're being intolerant and overstepping your bounds. Discussing these things in the forums is one thing. Speaking out against lifestyles you disagree with in world is quite another. The TOS applies to both places, but there is an unwritten expectation of a higher standard in-world I think.

For example, you're well aware of my personal disposition on religion from my forum posts, but if I wandered into a church service going on in SL, or was ported there not knowing where I was going to land, I might stay and quietly observe just because it would be interesting, or I would simply quietly leave. It wouldn't be my place to say anything, even if what's going on is something I personally would rather not see in SL. I'll debate it on the forums, but I simply would not chastise anyone for doing what they want in game unless it's on my land or infringes on my rights through a TOS violation.

Just giving you some food for thought since I have no idea what happened in this particular case.

How? I don't like the smell of my dad's underwear, and I might even tell him that it bothers me, but I still tolerate it if he shrugs me off. I don't get mad and throw fits, in other words, demanding that he comply.


Well that's the thing, I haven't said a word about anything in-world, except when people come talking to me about the forums. Even then, I typically just say, "I'm trying to stay out of the forums unless something comes up" and walk away. I've discussed a few details with few new friends (not arguers/debaters) but never got deep into anything, certainly nothing even remotely relevant to my moral standards other than my Christian faith and conservative worldview in general.

Me neither! I really do think that whatever we all have found on the forums is what they were referring to. But again, I don't see how they can say I was expressing "hatred toward real-world individuals or communities". They used those words. Why?

"Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he was hungry.
"And when he saw a fig tree by the road, he came to it, and found nothing on it, but leaves only, and said to it, Let no fruit grow on you henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
"And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon has the fig tree withered away!"
--Matthew 21:18-20

"The next day, when they came from Bethany, he was hungry:
"And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if perhaps he might find any thing on it: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
"And Jesus answered and said to it, No man eat fruit of you hereafter forever. And his disciples heard it.
--Mark 11:12-14

"He destroyed their vines with hail and their sycamore-figs with sleet."
--Psalm 78:47

"Yes, this is what the LORD Almighty says: "I will send the sword, famine and plague against them and I will make them like poor figs that are so bad they cannot be eaten."
--Jeremiah 29:17

Jon, I've met you a few times in the Welcome Area and you were always nice and friendly to me.

I'm not sure why I'm even posting on this thread, except to say that I'm utterly confused about what's going on. I haven't ever been accused of having SL etiquette and after nearly 8 months in world, still can't guess what pisses people off. So, out of morbid curiosity, I'd like to ask a question to all:

Is the problem that Jon is disapproving or that he his expressing his disapproval?

My 2 cents... To me, tolerance is not about graciously putting aside your morals to accommodate someone else's behavior. Tolerance is accepting that some people have a different moral compass than you. I came to SL out of curiosity. I stayed in SL to learn about people and how different we all are. Variety is the spice of life!

I believe my definition came from dictionary.com Jon...but I know I didn't post the entire thing, only the parts that were relative to the conversation. Anyways.....

I think the definition I posted is what the Lindens follow, mostly because of this line in the Community Standards...

"...refrain from any hate activity which slurs a real-world individual or real-world community. "

Not saying at all that you are going around bashing people, but saying that, for example, gay people are wrong and they will all go to hell (just a hypothetical) could be perceived as a slur on that real-life community.

More on tolerance....from the TOS....

Tolerance
We value an open environment in which Residents feel free to express themselves. However, expressions of hatred toward real-world individuals or communities will not be tolerated.

You telling people why what they are doing is wrong could hinder people's ability to feel free to express themselves.

I feel that respect is a part of tolerance....but as I said before, you don't have to like it.

And to answer Kate's question....my personal problem is the vocalization to people of Jon's disapproval. He has every right to believe it, and express his feelings.....but I don't feel that condeming someones actions in the way that he seems to be doing is okay. Having a conversation with the person about it is one thing...but while someone is expressing themselves, in whatever way that may be, is just not the time. Walking away and discussing the situation at another time would be much better way to handle things if an opinion must be given, IMHO. Confronting people while they are "in the act" of whatever usually leads to defensive behavior and nothing productive in my experience.

Thats it! Right there. Exactly. I could not have put it better myself.

God Hates Shrimp

Just trying to lighten the mood with some silly humor. Now can't we all just get along?

Umm, Kats, it may seem like humor to you, but you do realize that those bible verses are exactly the reason that shrimp aren't considered "kosher," right?

Poor shrimp...I feel for them. It is terrible to have God hate you that way...

*pets the poor shrimp and comforts it*

Well, I got bananas.

I love everyone equally and if you hire my services while I'm wearing my "Escort" tag , I will be happy to show you just how much!

[/end Shameless plug]

Jon, let me see if I have this right.

-You feel it's intolerant of people to diss you for your beliefs.

-You feel it's appropriate to tell other people that what they're doing/saying/whatever is wrong and why.

-Your reasons are basically moral arguments from the bible and your religon.

Have I got that right so far?

So you want the tolerance from other people to allow you to tell a group of people engaged in some sort of activity that you personally find objectionable, that it's morally wrong for them to be doing that.

YET

You feel it's intolerant of them to tell you where to stick it when you do?

Sounds like a double standard to me.

It's like you just cannot understand that a lot of people believe your moral stand is just flat out wrong and really don't want to hear preaching. Some people (crazy I know) do not like hearing someone tell them gods ticked off at them. Must have to do with a dislike of the old holier-than-thou attitude.

Someone posted above the best solution, just quietly walk away. If you can't do that, expect more complaints.

And you aren't so innocent yourself from what I understand. I can easily say that I don't like your in-world exploits either. The first and only time I met you in-game, last night or the night before I think, you were complaining that you had just recieved your first neg rating. The person that rated you said it was for a sign you were carrying in the newbie area. When I asked him "Sign?" He said you had a sign that said .."Your first quest is to rate me".

I believe you said it was a joke, but that's a lame 'joke' and an obvious exploit of the newbs. Not a real high moral stand is it?

Jon, I say this without hate, dislike yes, but not hate. Just shut up. You can enjoy your SL time just as easily by not preaching to others, and we would certainly enjoy your time in SL without having to hear it.

Jon, I'm guessing that whatever happened that earned you the TOS violation was in-world, not here on the forums. If it's because of any of your forum posts I'd have a problem with that. You're certainly not guilty of anything on the forums that I wouldn't also be guilty of in reverse.

Its only a double standard if you are wrong.