Veni, vedi, approbo cavare!

All joking aside, I feel I have to address some concerns here:

First of all, the entire SL economic system is flawed. All of it. It simply doesn't work. Everything from land values, to the stipend and voting systems to this whole ratings mess... which brings me to the point:

Rate Mining. What is that, anyway? Does the term "rate miner" apply to anyone who gets rated frequently, or those who meet new people or host events in the hope of getting votes and positive rates? Or does "rate mining" refer to people who spend all their free time seeking out newbies and coaxing a positive rating out of them? Assuming there is one, where is the distinction drawn? Is there a formula one should follow so as to not be confused with "real" rate miners?

More importantly, does it really matter? If someone wants to spend the few hours we have in-world every day furiously seeking out other users in a bid to gather as many of their precious rates as humanly possible, how does that diminish anyone else's experience? Honestly, I can't say that sounds like a lot of fun, but as Dave Zeeman stated in his rating guide, for some people, that simply is the point of their SL existence.

From what I understand, the Lindens' "position" on it is that it's simply just another way to interact within Second Life. I believe I heard the words "boring" and "unfulfilling". Personally, I tend to agree. I'd rather be building or teaching, or just hanging out with friends.

So, that said, am I a rate miner? I know several people have accused me of it -- it seems that simply being on the Top 10 of the leader boards is enough. A couple people have even gone so far as to refuse to talk to me because of it.

More surprisingly, I've had newer users approach me, apparently under the impression that my being ranked high on the leader board meant something beyond indicating perhaps a slight surplus of free time... Overwhelmingly, my attempts to explain my opinons regarding the existence of the leader board and ratings system in general (I think they suck, if you were wondering.) have fallen on deaf ears, with an unconvinced, "well... yeah, but it's still pretty good." as a nearly verbatim response on several occasions.

I've discussed some of these concerns with others in-world, and the general message I've recieved is "don't worry about it". Unfortunately, I can't help but worry. We've recently lost one of our number with one of the main reasons cited (albeit by proxy) for her leaving as being rate miners.

Now, I feel awkward about raising this in a public forum, but I think the subjct matter concerns us all. Yes, Kerstin and I discussed this matter on a couple occasions. Yes, she considered me (at least at one point) to be a fairly serious rate miner... maybe even the worst of them all. The last time we spoke, I (truthfully) told her that I was no longer rating people in an attempt to simply get people to stop rating me. I don't care about my ranking, or "winning". (it's not a game, how can you win?) I don't care about being perceived as "cool" -- the simple truth of the matter is that I'm not.

I realize that despite its pitfalls, holding the top position on the leader board was important to Kerstin. I had no problem with that. As I've said a number of times, I really don't care about the leader board. Honestly, it's more trouble than it's worth. I would really like to emphasize that I don't think this shouldn't be a problem to anyone else either. For better or worse, Kerstin and I have been each other's only "competition" for weeks.

More to the point, I chose to attempt to curb the number of rates I was receiving not because of Kerstin, but because I have way more money than I need, and more to the point, I just can't stand all the stress and drama associated with this.

(I should note that Kerstin didn't ask me to limit my participation in the rating system, nor even really acknowledge it when I informed her I had... hey, she was busy at the time.)

Now, since then, I've gone ahead and rated several people anyway, though only in categories I felt they legitimately deserved, and only after both having rather long conversations or collaborating on a project together and having been rated first. I felt it was okay under those circumstances.

However, after classes, or at my house, people are still rating me... despite my attempts to discourage them. I realized that people simply aren't interested in hearing why I want them to de-rate me.

Just to reiterate: I like Kerstin. I think she did a lot for the SL community and made a huge contribution. I was disappointed that I was no longer welcome at her events, and I'm saddened that I won't get a chance to again.

I may be TOTALLY misreadiing things here, but if I was one of the principal factors in Kerstin's departure, I just wanted to say I'm sorry and I wish I'd at least had a chance to talk to her about it beforehand.

I realize that I'm probably going to be pissing people off for one reason or another in this post -- if so, please feel free to come by and rate me negatively. Don't worry, I won't do the same in return.

And no, I do not speak Latin.

Catherine Omega
256,128 Shipley

I got to this point and stopped reading....you have been accused of rate mining because when the rating system changed you came to kerstin and I and TOLD us you were rate mining...(hell you may have coined the phrase)......you said you did it to get more money and that you hoped no one would notice because you didn't want to be thought of that way....we were in awe that you would say that you didn't want to be thought of as a rate miner.....yet rate mined just the same.....

Just thought you might want a brief dose of clarity before continuing this debate....

*the rest of your post is meaningless to me...start with lies the rest must be lies

Actually, I do remember that discussion and though most of it was said half-seriously, you're completely correct, it was half-seriously. Thank you for clearing that up, Val.

I know you said you didn't read it, but like I said in my message, if you or anyone else wants to come by and rate me negatively, I encourage you to do so with no risk of any "retaliation." I didn't come here to make enemies, and I'm sorry if I have. Both you and Kerstin are still okay by me, and I sincerely apologize for my part in forcing her to leave.

Catherine Omega
256,128 Shipley

I will rate you neg because I saw you with my man!
Just kidding.

Catherine, you didn't force her to leave.

I really, really HATE the phrase "rate mining". I hate that people are accusing others of doing it. I especially hate it when the accuser has a very high rating themselves.

Well yeah, that's what I thought... I just wanted to make sure of that, but if the whole "rate mining" thing was one of the two main factors, and it's now apparent that I'm the rate miner in question, then... well, you get the idea.

I just wish someone had said something... I dunno, maybe they did.

Catherine Omega
256,128 Shipley

Actually I think If you are rate mining you are working the system to it's full advantage for yourself. Have you all forgot this is Beta and we are supposed to work the system to it's full advantage.

Catherine, There is nothing wrong with what you are doing.

Xavier

I wish eveyone would stop doing the single worst word that I've found occuring here.

ASSUME.

Nobody should assume anything, nobody should believe that their opinions are the 100% correct ones, and nobody should quit having fun in SL just because they are off'd by some group of people who play the game.

...

Hell it's probably bad enough that I assume and believe that the statement above is 100% correct. This whole discussion is cynical

You can't please everybody all the time.

In your first post to this thread you asked:


Actually ASKING people to rate you, perhaps?

or simply rating everyone you see? (because the percentage of folks who'll rate you back is pretty high, I would imagine)

I think SL is a game but I do also think its a community. How do we balance these two things to work, thats the million dollar question?

I appreciate people who are actively pursuing any fields, theres quite a variety, are any more less or more important? It could be quite possible for the majority of people to be active in all fields is near to impossible without living on line full time, this in itself could present a problem when the game goes live. Will there be enough interest in playing if you are not totally dedicated to all fields, can you be strong in one and still survive in SL?

Lets take a look at the fields(I might have left one out)....

Scripting
Building
Teaching
Event hosting
Selling
Games
Community Projects

Now all these are important for SL to survive as an active community and game. How can we build up each as being important in keeping the community and game alive? =0)

I agree with Catherine. I also read her entire post.

I had a discussion with Kerstin a week ago about this whole thing. I've never been a fan of rate whoring, and it has been going on since Law Murphy started it back in December. To me, it is not true to the purpose that the ratings system was implemented. However, I have never seen a rate miner hurt anyone. Without exception, they are helpful, friendly people, and whether they are helpful and friendly for some sinister purpose, or because that is just who they are is besides the point. In order to get rated positively, they have to bring something positive to the community. Catherine has a very high rating. She can afford a lot because of it. However, she certainly does not use her rating to its full advantage. Her home is modest for what she _could_ afford.

And believe me, we don't want to have to define rate mining, lest we find ourselves hypocrites. I know that I have twice intentionally solicited ratings. I have profited positive four ratings because of this. Am I a rate miner?

So my point is - even though I don't like it, and its not working how it is intended - the ratings system IS making SL a better place.

And Val, I enjoy hearing your opinions, but could you please lay off the ellipses?

BuhBC

ummmmm... 'scuse me... sorry for interrupting everyone's fantasies

1) I have not discussed with ANYONE except Val the reasons for my leaving. So as you read these vitriolic posts that are spinning off practically by the minute into peoples' fantasy worlds, please keep in mind that none of this actually came from me, or was based AT ALL on my reasons or my feelings.

2) One and ONLY one person has said my leaving had anything to do with rate mining. That person is Catherine. And the only person who said my leaving had anything to do with Catherine... is Catherine. I have gone back and read every related post, and the only one talking about rate mining in regards to my leaving is... you got it... Catherine

3) The only person I have discussed this with, who is Val, stated quite clearly (and accurately) that I left to protect myself from griefing. I will expand on that to tell you, so that you get it right from me, that I can not brush off griefing. It therefore causes me stress. Stress worsens my heart condition. I love many people in here, but have met no one and nothing in SL I'm willing to have a heart attack for.

4) The only correlation I can find between the rating system and my leaving AT ALL is that the current system can be (and is) exploited by griefers to further grief the victim. (They grief you, and then grief you further by neg rating you).

5) A few more facts you may be interested in (of course, I realize some of you are more interested in the fabrications):
a) There were 4 griefers in less than an hour. 1 was prior to the event. 3 were during the event.
b) Val did call a Linden with the 1st griefer, who said he was sorry, but he really was not supposed to deal with things like that, and really couldn't do anything. Not his fault. And I am grateful to him for coming out as he did.
c) I did not report anyone for anything.
d) Multiple people at the incident filed abuse reports. I got this info unexpectedly and straight from Linden (the person examining the reports).
e) Well, this is kind of a lil quiz for ya: if I was supposedly ejecting people for doing nothing, then why were the people there filing abuse reports against the people I ejected? A lil food for thought.
f) Ok one more lil quiz question. If one of people I ejected, more than once, had stopped fighting, then why did she apologize to me -- twice? If I was standing around calmly chatting and someone for absolutely no reason started ejecting me 3 times, believe me, I wouldn't be apologizing -- I'd be cussing them out.
g) Those of you making up stuff up as you go along sure look silly, but hey, thanks for the laughs -- I really needed them
h) I really, really am not coming back

6) To my dear friends, and you know who you are, I love you too. Please email me so we can stay in touch at [email]kersting@optonline.net[/email]

Kerstin

No, Kerstin, I never claimed you left because of me, or because of rate mining. This post by Valfaroth in "I want my Kerstin back!" was what led me to believe that the "rate mining" isssue was a contributing factor.



I wanted to know which rate miners specifically, having been singled out recently, and so I asked... and Val replied, apparently confirming my suspicions.

You're right though, even Val, (though he implied it by not reading my post here fully, yet still commenting on it) even he didn't specifically say that I had anything to do with your leaving. That's all I wanted to know. Thank you for setting the record straight.

Good luck, Kerstin. I'm sorry things ended badly between us.

Catherine Omega
256,128 Shipley

You need to read Misnomer's post just before Val's. Misnomer suggested identifying flaws in the system. I dunno how to link in another post, but here's what Misnomer said:

"Im not saying to post a rundown of what happened but how about some more specifics on the flaws that need to be addressed."

Val responded by doing just that -- identifying a couple examples of flaws in the system. Nothing regarding reasons for me leaving.

When I made my decision to leave, I assure you, that neither rate mining nor you were anywhere in my mind.

Okay,

Catherine, something you said is leaving a bit of a bad taste in my mouth...



The first part is fine, where you don't rate people until you talk or work with them for a while... it's the second condition that you have that is a burr under my saddle.

Why is it that you won't rate that person until after they rate YOU ? Why do you feel that YOU have to be rewarded before you reward them? I'm not trying to attack you, Catherine... I am just curious

I rate people when I choose to rate people... if someone is nice to me, I rate them. If I like their avatar appearance (especially custom clothing that are very detailed and well done), I rate them. If I like their buildings or they create some really cool scripts, I rate them.

I personally think that the rating system should NOT be factored into the economic system... I think that this system should be used as a way to see who might be really good at different things. Yes, this system can be exploited, but we are here to try and figure out ways to make sure it can be tweaked to prevent things like "rate mining" from happening in go-live.

We, as beta testers, are here to find what is broken and fix it... much like my friends do as playtesters for one of the bigger collectible card games in that market... I have heard horror stories about some of the combos that didn't make it into the game after the set they worked on got released.

Let's fix this problem once and for all... I don't want to hear the words "rate miner" ever in go-live.

Bye bye for now,
Alexis

Oy... yes. Thanks for calling me on that, Alexis. I might have been a bit more precise there....

Okay, the reasoning behind it is that the "preemptive rating" thing is part of what got me labelled a rate miner. I know, it sounds stupid, but for a while, I just liked rating people. *sigh* (The predictable effect of that was that I very quickly accumulated ratings in return.)

Now, if someone wants to exchange ratings AND I feel they're deserving of it, yes, I will rate them. Generally speaking, I'm not rating any longer. (And definitely not for people who ask to be rated!) I don't really see the point anymore.

As it stands, it's usually a moot point anyway -- most people rate others almost immediately, and I'm not going to rate someone until I think they deserve it. In all honesty, since I re-thought my position on preemptive rating, it's simply never come up that someone I wanted to rate hadn't rated me yet. If it did, I guess I'd natually rate them -- they've earned it, after all.

I think you're right about disassociating ratings and finances though... ratings exist as a means of rewarding people, but there's surely got to be a better way than the current model.

Catherine Omega
256,128 Shipley

Catherine,

Thank you for clearing that up for me...it's the technical writer in me that tends to notice things that have no full explanation as to why they were written (which is a small pet peeve of mine, even in my own writing).

I do see your point about "pre-emptive rating"... I have done that on occasion myself; not for a rating in return, but just because. I don't do that anymore, or at least curtaill it to a minimum, due to the fact that I started to think that I was becoming a bit of a "rate miner" myself. I still do rate people when I want to, but I wait longer before I do now.

Don't worry, Catherine... I just liked rating people also when I first got in here a whole couple of weeks ago.

This is how I see how the ratings should be interpreted:

Behavior: The people up at the top are the more friendly, personable people who would be good to meet, if only to introduce yourself into the SL "social circle", so to speak... these people could help you meet other people in the game quicker (due to events that these top-list people run, etc.) than they could by themselves.

Appearance: The people on the higher end of that list know a bunch about doing costuming and creating clothing for avatars... good people to get tips from when trying to do your own clothing.

Building: These people at the top of the list are very good at building structures and objects, and/or being able to create excellent scripts.

This is just be a bit of naivete on my part, but that's how I read them... I also think the term "Leaderboard" connotates some sort of competition as well, possibly one more factor that might be contributing to "rate mining" and some sort of popularity contest for the top spot.

Feel free to ask me any questions about what I have posted.

Bye bye for now,
Alexis

I have strong opinions on this topic. So fair warning to readers, opinionated rant ahead!

This "rate-mining" thing has become a witch-hunt. People are accused, accusations fly, paranoia flourishes...and all for nothing, in my opinion.

The goal of the rate system is to encourage socializing...it does that. As to whether some people socialize with the intention of boosting their ratings and other people socialize with the genuine love of humanity in their heart is moot. They are out in the community, attending, participating, meeting, chatting, etc.

What is most disturbing about this whole rate-mining issue, is that we are judging people on their intentions. In an virtual environment, where we are stripped of the thousands of subtle cues of body language and voice nuance, it's ridiculously easy to misunderstand someone. I think it's pointless to then try to get into someone's head and presume to know their intentions.

With that said, I believe that rate-mining is a useless and destructive label. As the people who are most often accused of rate-mining, have turned out in my estimation to be nice, friendly, helpful people.

When I see that people who were never in any danger of being accused of rate-miners change their behavior because they are worried that "pre-emptive rating" is a sign of rate-mining, i just feel sad. The only people who are effected by this change are the newbies, who come into a system, where people jealously guard their ratings to protect their reputations.

Wake up, people! If you are being nice, socializing, helping people, you are not a rate-miner! You are a SL citizen interacting in one of the coolest online environments ever created. Enjoy it with freedom, pleasure and generosity. Enjoy it with a spirit of community and sharing. Let's leave the paranoia, suspicion and petty accusations for RL.