NEWSFLASH: All Econ Doomsayers Read

Alby (& others) -

A note of advice, if I could:

Pissing people off and being rude is *NOT* the way to win your side of an argument, ok?

People who are emotionally worked up will not debate ANYTHING, they will just stick to their position harder and harder. If you want folks to even consider what you're saying, calm down and let them calm down, too. The next 8 hours on this Forum are going to be a mud-slinging fest. So ride out the storm and THEN make some logical points... You'll find it a lot more successful.

Oh, and anytime a thread degenerates into bickering, you KNOW LL is going to stop reading it - so you're also shooting yourself in the foot if you want your voice heard.

Thank you. Take care,

--Noel "HB" Wade
(Tread Whiplash)

(yes, I cropped your post... lol)

I understand what you are saying, Tread, and I am not arguing that point. Honestly. I agree that if the manufacturers could make a profit selling shirts for next-to-nothing to the poor, they would. I can see both sides of the argument ... or rather discussion, going on right now. And I hope that it turns out that prices do adjust to compliment the new lower incomes. I just don't foresee that happening, b/c those that are already well-established designers (i.e., the SL manufacturers) know that they can do just fine strictly selling their wares to the wealthy who can afford it. I foresee prices staying exactly where they are, for the most part, except on land, scripts meant for event hosting, etc. That's just me. Maybe I'm a pessimist.

and aint part of that exprenice all about going around and seeing all the wondefull things people have made? Shirts/outfits/jewlery/Buildings...as humans we have a desire to ownpart of that. Expecialy if we do not have the skills to do it ourselfs?

Humans after all play this game and we bring all of our human emotions/Needs/Desires into this game, so asking some one that love cloths to change the way they are in seocnd ls absurd. Thats what they like doing, why should they change?They pay thier money let them do what they want.

My issues is that i belvie in people making the right decisons for themself.
Economy is also run by the whole supply and demand. and the common term, "price is based on what the market will bear" and thats set by people.

If you are willing to pay 3000L for a Skin (wich Is nutz) Then people are going to keep paying it, but if people stopped then they would have to drop prices on thier own.

Again bottom line its a game....lets hope it can stay that way...always a bad idea to make something thats supposed to be fun to much like RL...that sucks already LOL

Getting a little off topic here, but if you were in a police officers situation, and a person was coming at you to attack you, you cannot sit here and tell me that you wouldn't shoot them, because you would, it's not wild west armed police, it's basic human instinct to survive. That would not be wild west economics either, it's the Lindens seeing a trend and trying to correct it.

No one knows if this is the wrong or the right way of going about fixing the economy, or curbing inflation or whatever seems to be going on here, just like in the RL economy. No one can perdict 100 percent what the Linden will be tommorow, or even next week, because it fluctuates, just like the RL economy. But the people with the data can make an educated guess based off of past occurances and basic theories about flucutations in the economy. Perhaps the Lindens saw something in the data they had, and knew they had to make a change in the near future, and thought now would be a good time. Everyone thought the introduction of land tier fees and RL USD would be the downfall of SL, and look where it is now. It's booming now, there's been an influx of players and an influx of money, and that influx of money, if it is kept unchecked, can cause a whole economy to crash. If there is too much money pumped into an economy, and not enough output to spread that money around, then we could end up with a point where everyone has LOTS of lindens, but a simple couch that would normally cost about 20 Lindens in world could end up costing 20,000 Lindens. This inflation is not good for the economy as the poor won't be able to purchase those items, and the rich would not want to pay those prices.

Sure, this is a virtual economy, and it really won't have THAT much of a bearing on our lives, like we won't be carrying around a wheelbarrow full of Lindens to go to the store to buy a loaf of bread or anything (since we don't need to eat), but looking at the past, it's a trend that I think SL will start heading to that point without the change. Is LL making the right choice, i'm not sure, nobody will know until the system has been implemented for a while.

S'okay Nikki - I'm a "realist" *grin* So I know the feeling.

But there's another thing I forgot to point out:

In RL, a "bum" on the street can't run out and start a manufacturing plant of his own. In SL, we all have the power to do that. Even if we aren't crafters ourselves, we can work with people who build and set up shops in rented plots or whatever. The "entry-cost" of being an Entrepreneur is Very, Very low! So people HAVE the power to change their economic position in SL much more quickly and positively than in RL.

I'm not saying that everyone should or will be in business; or must craft to survive.

I have a sneaking suspicion that many of the most outraged people on here are Basic Account holders. But the folks on small stipends (Basic / free account-holders) need to realize that they are NOT LL's focus. LL has to make money to survive - and that means favoring paying members; its just a fact of life. If you're on a free account getting to enjoy the fruits of labor of 30+ people putting in long work-weeks for the last several YEARS - you need to be aware of the sweet deal you're getting; and be realistic about what to expect in-game! Yes, I know you all paid USD $10 to get in; but hell that's the cost of a meal or two at a fast-food restaurant! At most that food's in your digestive system for 24 hours - SL provides a lot more entertainment per dollar spent! *grin*

Anyways, I'm sure I'll be dog-piled for saying these things, so I'll cut it short here and see what the train-wreck of some of these threads look like when they're done.

Take care,

--Noel "HB" Wade
(Tread Whiplash)

Only the poor people are pissed. Let them eat cake..

Yannow the last person who said that was beheaded, and the poor people rose up and took over the country.

So, go on. Really.

Might I reiterate that the median land owned is 512m, which to me indicates that at least 50% of SLrs are on basic accounts. The poor seem to be a majority.

LOL --- The upper class has learned its lessons from history and it won't happen again. Now get your cake and be gone.


This time the poor people will be put to the Guillotine.

Hiro -

Rather than berating you as some are, let me respond a bit more seriously -

If 50% are on a Basic / Free account, then I submit the following question: How will LL make any money on SL? They've had investors pour millions of dollars into the company over the last few years. If SL is to stick around for any length of time, they need to break even or be profitable. Making life "easier" for Basic/Free accounts (for which they get no revenue, but pay expenses on) doesn't really help in this regard.

With all the debate tonight about the Linden-Buck economy, its important to remember that the Real-Life economics also play a factor. People have put time, effort, and money into SL - a LOT of it. They are entitled to get something in return for their work. If you disagree with this principle, then you should be giving away all of your creations & possessions in SL for free... And pushing to get everyone in SL to give away their wares and never charge a single L$ for anything they do. Its the same logic in both cases: "I exist, so I'm entitled to everything!" Sadly, life does not work that way.

Take care,

--Noel "HB" Wade
(Tread Whiplash)

Except for
- Mao Tse Tung's revolution in China
- overthrow of the Romanovs and the rise of Lenin and communism in Russia / USSR
- Castro / Che Gueverra / etc
- Taliban's overthrow by tribal leaders backed by American forces in Afghanistan
- India's revolution by the poor against the British Empire
- South Africa ending apartheid in a revolution of the poor

Gee, that's only like, 2.5 billion people.

Excellent thoughts, Noel.

But what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

Linden Lab receives no kickbacks from GOM. So money manipulation doesn't affect LL's bottom line.

Linden Lab wants to KEEP customers and grow new ones. If the economy goes haywire, and people leave, like in TSO or There or EQ, Linden Lab loses money. Therefore, it's in LL's best interest to think hard and long about major changes to the SL economy.

So really it's not a matter of LL earning more money. It seems to be a way to limit griefing, for sure, but it needs to be discussed with the community at large for a length of time. This is a huge risky move that will affect everyone in SL and their money, which could huge repercussions in the SL economy. Rushing this is not good.

A few in that list had good causes. The others like Mao, Castro, and Che are a bunch of Commie Terrorist who killed millions.. Which side are you on? Right or left? Must be left if you know about Che. That commie should have been shot by the CIA.. Leftist Rebels.

Good or bad is irrelevant in this example.

You said that since the French Revolution, the poor have not risen up. I gave examples where they have. Both good and bad.

Hiro -

I know there's a lot of chatter going on tonight: I've posted in other threads that I'm not sure that LL is making the right moves. Luckily, I'm on a Basic account at the moment, so I'm happy to wait and see. I'll let the people with more to lose do the serious debating on WHAT action LL should take...

BUT, I will remind you that - as open as LL is about things on this Forum and their Blogs - we don't see EVERYTHING that goes on in their offices. They could very well have done some serious debate and economic modelling to prove out their choices. OR, they could've slapped this together in 5 minutes... None of us on the outside knows the truth. *shrug* But I do know that they're not out to sabotage their own product! So self-preservation is going for them, at the VERY least.

Maybe its because I grew up in So. Cal; but since they seem determined to implement this, I'm channeling my inner Surfer-Dude and saying "Just go with the flow, Brahhh. The rip-tide's waaaaayyy wicked to fight; best to let it chill some and see where ya are after it runs its course, right man? Maybe swim sideways to the current an' all - but fightin' it'll just tire ya out, Dude!" (It's much better if you imagine the stereotype voice. *grin*)

Take care,

--Noel "HB" Wade
(Tread Whiplash)

Hahah, Tread, welcome to the forum. You make intelligent posts.

For sure.

We do have an example of a patch hastily being implemented causes a bunch of post-patches and a lot of craziness on the server - SL v1.5. After that happened, LL sucked it up, did the honorable thing, and admitted that the 2 days of testing was completely insufficient to find the bugs that eventually caused a lot of problems. Philip or Cory, I believe, said that from then on, patches would have sufficient test time.

And now we're back to a 2-day warning. This is what I'm concerned about. If LL believes this is the best course of action, so be it. But at least explain it to us, let us discuss it, and give it more than 2 days to make sure it works!

Nah, I have no desire to flame or dog-pile you. I agree with you that those players who hold premium accounts are and should be LL's focus. No argument from me on that. And, I, like you, am going to wait it out and see what happens. What I am going to ASSUME and what I am going to give the Lindens the benefit of the doubt on is that IF they see that they smashed things to hell, they will correct it.

What this means to me? It means that I need to get better at Photoshop, and that maybe I need to take a few classes on scripting - not necessarily to go into business, but just to make things for my own enjoyment. It also means that I need to be more careful about rating someone, and only do it if I really mean it, and it's important. However, I do still feel that these current changes are a bit EXTREME, and I just can't help but see the rich in SL getting richer and the poor getting poorer for the time being. Hopefully I'm wrong, and I'm willing to trust the Lindens - for now.

Hell, it might just mean that a LOT of us get a lot better at Photoshop and scripting in the near future. Of course, that might be positive in other ways too, since there's a really good chance that events are going down the drain, and scripting and photoshopping will take up a lot of time. LOL Who knows though, maybe people will start having events that REALLY get creative and aren't yet-another-show-my-tush-in-a-thong contest! (Mind you, I've been to my fair share of those - I have a cute tush, after all - and I have hosted my fair share, too!)

As it happens for me, I'm just worried and concerned about the friends I have who are discussing leaving behind SL with these changes, and am not so much enraged at my newly acquired risk of being FLAT broke all the time as a basic account holder. But, I suppose, that all I can do is go with the flow and see what happens. And for all the petitioning and the voices raised on the forums tonight, I suspect that that's all any of us can do for the time being.

Not to say that the Lindens don't listen to us, I know that they do - but, they also had to know that releasing this news THIS fast and giving us THIS little warning would cause this much stir, and they proceeded anyway, so I'm pretty sure they are bound and determined to see if their hypotheses and theories about the changes to the economy are right or wrong.

Thanks for the compliments, folks. Its always refreshing to find people in a forum who are capable of rational debate.

Nikki -

My GUESS, as an experienced person in the games-industry, is that LL might have figured that there would be a big hue-and-cry no matter what... So doing this quickly leaves a shorter time-span for people to get pissed and start momentum or bad meme's or whatever... Just a guess.

As far as Photoshop - my preference is actually PaintShop Pro. Cheaper, easier to use (well, the latest versions are becoming a bit complex); and almost as feature-rich as Photoshop.

As far as Prims and Scripting go - I hope to start some Tutorials and classes myself soon. I've got a long history of having Websites devoted to teaching people how to make their own add-ons to computer-games (its how I got hired into the industry)....

I've only been on SL for about 2 weeks, but as soon as I've gotten a little more experience, I really look forward to helping a lot of other people get creative and interactive with the tools SL gives us to make nifty stuff!

Take care,

--Noel "HB" Wade
(Tread Whiplash)

this may be totally out there but since we're going to drop the available money, that means i will get to pay less REAL money for my land.. seems reasonable.. sorry for just throwing that out there but thats the way my mind works.. flame me if you must. sorry forgot to mention i was being funny..

The only reason the Everquest economy got out of hand is because of bug exploits which allowed the duping of money...and also from ILLEGAL buying of platinums from sites like GOM. It is against Everquest TOS to buy platinum outside the game but they have no real way to enforce it. Everquest economy works nothing like SL economy so this is pretty much irrelevant.

Is it ? I would say it's a perfectly observed fact.
IMHO almost everyone is stupid. Look at RL as an example!

People who take SL way too seriously are very stupid !

Look someone just go to Alby's House disconnect his Java Maker and take away his Cigerettes and all his Liquor and Im sure he will settle down. Right now he is probably so drunk with Numbers and Impending doom his head has to just about explode right now.

Shadow

Passing out signs since 2004...."Here's your sign!!!"

let me reiterate from months ago.

alby owns this forum.

There is some userful conversation going on in this thread, but I wanted to remind everyone to please refrain from personally attacking people in the forums.

Yes. I'll keep it under control. But tell Hiro to stop saying I'm going to the Devil.

PS: Could I have a couple extra L$ ? eheehehe

Now Now... Don't hurt poor Alby with those attacks Shadow.. Be Nice.. Send me some money and I'll forgive you. L$100,000 oughta do it..