Stolen items question

There is some good discussion going on in this topic, I just wanted to remind everyone to please refrain from personally attacking someone you don't agree with in the forums.

Exactly.
I had undenyable proof that something of mine was taken... I bought one of the items that was taken--and sure enough the textures pointed to MY inventory. I was completely ignored on the situation.
and JennyFur is right... people dont get what we put into things, that particular item I had spent about a month on... it was my personal skin that had been modified over weeks of playing.

I guess LL doesn't really care.. or is afraid of alienating people by punishing these matters..
well, now some of the designers are moving on. Guess you can't please everyone.

Just really sucks to put everything into your work and have it be for nothing.

Could you clarify this point Shadow - as one of the founders of one of (the first in fact) $1 Newbie store I'd like to be perfectly clear about what your saying before I reply.

Siggy.

I think he is saying the privs bug started the trend of "FREE" 1L$ sales boutiques selling stolen goods. I don't think he is condeming legitimate stores that sell original work for free or $1.

-aimee

Siggy your an exception to the rule as you either have them for sale from your own creations or inventory or have permissions from your friends that allow it.

The ones I am referencing are the ones that have multiple Items in a box that have "NO Creator" on the creator tab thus not knowing the creator. With those items there is no legitimate way to know if they have permission to sell it or not. Thus, where the Items that were lost from 1.0 to 1.2 and other updates come into play.

Hope that clears up what you are thinking. But yes I am talking like the Junk yards and several other places that propogate free Items yet do not check or make sure its ok with the orginal creators to pass out for free let alone charge l$1 for a box considering there is no tax on box creation anymore.

With a "Nobody" as the creator tag that alone should be a flag to get rid of it and not invite any unwanted attention.

Shadow

Also Siggy in the orginal post please note: I did go into a description of the situation noting "No Creator" as the issue. This was not an implication toward legitimate content creators that make their items for Free or sell for 1$.

I will add that the collection being sold clearly had creator tags on all of the animations - this is not a result of the no creator issue.

Thanks for the clarification - but by calling it the harbinger (that which foreshadows) it is very easy to read that another way...

The permissions systems of 1.0 had no bearing on the creation of OUR store , and there were a lot of very good - talented - and generous people involved in its creation.


(addendum) - In fact we were hurt more than anyone by broken permission systems and lack of support - something that eventually (in my opinion) turned that whole experiment into a failure (in my eyes) - and ultimately left a lot of people very jaded.

Siggy.

God I can't tell you how much hearing that sucks - I am a big fan of your work, and the fact that this has caused you to be involved less is the worst part of it. It makes me angry that the reaction by Linden Lab is "oh well". They are frustratingly lax in certain areas, and overbearing in others, and the net result is alienating people.

I hope you do eventually come back, it would be a terrible shame for you not to. This happening combined with some other things that have been going on have also caused me to scale back my time in SL as well - it's a lot more rewarding to deal with levelling up in World of Warcraft or to spend time with my family and friends than it is to deal with SL right now. Sorry this happened to you, Aimee, and to everyone else it has happened to.

Then Siggy in essence we are in the same boat but landed there from different aspects of the Permissions A.. whooping we got at that time.

Cris, at the same time of the No Creator aspect by them having a circumvented copy that bears your name as the creator without your express permission is just as wrong as selling something with a NO Creator tag.

So much grey to define clearly as black n white.

Shadow

Yes I was going to add this. There are multiple reasons why people are able to sell stolen goods above and beyond the old "no creator" issues. They include recent bugs in the privs system that made all privs permissive on some items (but did not change the creator tag), as well as deliberate priv system exploits (I have seen one exploit demonstrated, and others are rumored).

For Christiano, Mistress, and I (and many others), our goods still have our names as the creator. The Lindens could make a simple rule: "Resale and redistribution of items is not permitted without consent of the creator...EVEN IF PERMITTED BY THE PRIVS". Then the Lindens could answer abuse reports by shutting down thieving stores and issuing disciplinary action on a case by case basis.

At this time the Lindens are unwilling to do this. I suspect Mistress hit the nail on the head when she said LL does not want to alienate users that redistribute work. Alienating SL's producers is less risky because we are a MUCH smaller demographic and by our very nature we are enthusiastic even in adversity.

The question is, when will SL producers reach their "Oh Well" breaking point?

-Aimee

Shadow,

I was in no way saying it was any more or less wrong, only noting that the items clearly had the creator tag on them.

I'm looking into this issue for NWN. Unfortunately, I'm unable to get into SL for the next couple weeks, so can people who've had problems with this e-mail me (hamlet@secondlife.com) a description of the problem, and tell me how it's impacted their creations/sales/other projects?

You asked for it babe!

"Scrappy reporter found dead of 19 stab wounds in the back.
Police suspect suicide...
Investigators searching for priv-gate files in Linden Lab's shreaders."

Aimee

This problem affected me as well. There were 3 seperate occasions when all items in my inventory and in my vendors had all permissions randomly reset. I can't even begin to calculate how much I lost in sales as a result, but I know the number is huge as I caught one person distributing free copiable copies of my most popular items not once but twice.

When confronted, this person promised to stop both times, claiming she was confused and didn't understand. I won't name names here (hate it when people do that) but I will say that this person is very well established in SL, the owner of some popular places. There's no possible way she "didn't understand". Anyway, although I think she did stop after getting caught the second time, the damage was obviously done and it's now completely out of control. There's now no way to know who has gotten my stuff from a friend who got it from a friend who got it from a friend, let alone tell any of them that they shouldn't have it and shouldn't give it out.

As annoying as this problem is, I must say that what I find more annoying are all the allogations that the Lindens don't care or are too lazy to do anything about it. One particular Linden spent a lot of time with me after the last incident, looking at my items, talking about the history of the problem, in short, taking it very seriously and trying to get to the bottom of it. Finally, a few weeks later, he let me know that they had been trying to diagnose and solve the problem for weeks now but despite all their efforts they were unable to reproduce it. He also said that this problem was of particular interst to him, as it also had affected some of his own vendors. I assumed this last bit must have had to do with a personal alt account since I don't think individual Lindens have any vendors anywhwere, but I didn't ask.

I'd say my experience is pretty strong evidence that the Lindens not only care about this issue, but also that they are doing their best to fix it. While it seems to be human nature to blame those in authority and to accuse them of being cold, uncaring, and unhelpful when we have problems, I think we would all do well to rise above that here. What on earth would possess the Lindens not to care about a problem as serious as this?

It's unfortunate that they are having such a hard time finding the cause of the problem, and I'm just as upset as anyone else here that the problem exists in the first place, but I can understand why the Lindens are having a hard time with it. The problem only hits certain people, only pops up very seldom, and behaves in very unpredictable ways. It's more or less equivilent to that awful noise your car makes every time you drive it but goes away every time you try to take it to the shop. The mechanic doesn't get to hear it so he can't fix it.

Anyway I really hope they are able to solve the problem soon, difficult as it may be. As others have stated, this problem is the biggest reason I haven't added to my product line lately. I got pretty discouraged after I saw just how many of my avs simply had been given away when they should have been purchased.

Chosen,
from a purely technical standpoint I would agree with you. I have argued in favor of the Lindens many times when it comes to forgiving LL for technical problems along the way to creating a revolutionary virtual world, and this is no exception. I do know the Lindens want this bug fixed very badly, and they want it to never appear again.

But this problem has a regulatory and customer service aspect as well, and in this category LL are performing sub par.

-When I brought my issue to the attention of the Lindens, they investigated, said there was nothing they could do, and then made a joke about it. (Yes...honestly, i was pissed.)

-When an OBVIOUS rip-off is brought to the attention of the Lindens, they have not been shutting down the redistributors or doing anything at all.

-Lindens refuse to take diciplinary action against users that resell goods against the wishes of the creators.

-Lindens will not repay creators for losses that result from their own bugs causing priv issues.

Look, me criticizing Linden Labs is GOOD news because it means I have a spark of hope that encourages me to speak out. The alternative is that I feel so discouraged by SL that I quietly slink away and find a new game to play. That's what I have been doing in the last 2-3 weeks, and that's what others will do if Linden Labs doesn't figure out a policy that encourages producers to produce.

-aimee

Hamlet, while I do love NWN, it's lame that the only 2 Linden responses in this thread were from a forum moderator and a journalist. While it's great that you are looking for new fodder for your column, I think the time might be better spent having a conversation with the development team. Will your story inspire the development team to fix the problem? Will it change the lackadaisical attitude that LL shows in response to specific incidents of theft?

Let's fix the problem and not write about it. Or do we have to right about it to get a response?

That TOTALLY sucks!

And is really really really discouraging to those of us who are trying to become respected artists like you. I've been trying hard to make a small business, and have been lucky enuff to buy a Premium Membership with it. In fact I was about to expand and add my first land tier so I could have some space that's exclusively for my store.

Hearing this kind of thing just totally scares me. I'm not about to invest in land and building time if I can't count on my income 'cause suddenly somebody might steal my best items. I'm not a technical person and my computer's not very fast, so I only sell stuff in a few places and it's all out of boxes (I can understand thoose! ^_^;;). If somebody copied my stuff and put in malls I'd never know. (;_;)


BTW I love your stuff Aimee. I completely adore my LV bag - my Avie felt practically naked before I got it! I'm really bummed that you're not going to be making new things...

This happened to a ton of us. As soon as I found out about the bug, I notified all the creators I knew to check their stuff. Unfortunately, anything that got out with full permissions was long gone.

That being said, Philip Linden himself came to visit ON THE NIGHT this was discovered and worked with a bunch of us trying to find the bug (he ever wore one of Jennyfur's pink nighty items - it was QUITE stunning). Within three days, Phoenix Linden informed me that a stable new version of the client had be built and would be distributed in the next release.

That's pretty fast action. I really wish they could have gone back and taken care of people "stealing", but then the problem becomes, how do you tell who get the items legitimately versus who stoles them from the object box or vendor's contents? Its was a tough pill for all of us to swallow, but I can see the rationale.

As for Lindens reacting to selling of stolen goods, or freebies? I've always seem them act fast, but sorry your mileage varied. Just last week, Michael Linden was on location within minutes return a bunch of freebie items for sale on a plot. In fact, I think he did a return all to show them a lesson.

Cheers,

-Flip

BTW, just to reiterate - this bug has long since been fixed, and is no longer happening! Any new creations have been fine for a while now. This seems to have been a one time thing that happened a while back, however, many people didn't realize it happened and haven't checked all their items (we're still finding one or two we missed ourselves).

Regards,

-Flip

1. This bug appears from time to time as mentioned by previous posters. The most recent incarnation of this problem appears to be fixed but without assurance that it will never happen again. Of course I am not advocating "bug-free code" These things happen.

I am talking about Linden Policy to prevent SL content providers from becoming too discouraged to produce. The policy should include some combination of enforcement against OBVIOUS theft (it seems you have had good Linden response to this, some of my friends have not), and reparations. I understand there are alot of gray areas that need to be delt with. Just like there is no automated digital solution to harassment charges in SL, there may never be one for content theft. The Lindens will just have to hear evidence and use judgement to ensure content thieves are not encouraged and SL's produces do not become discouraged.

2. Not all content theft happened because of the recent priv bug. I have seen exploits that allow copying items, and textures and have heard rumors of others.


Aestival Cohen:
I would really hate to see you discouraged. The fact that Hamlet will be covering this issue is a REALLY good sign and has given me some hope. Before you give up, I would follow this thread and Hamlet's blog closely and see how the Lindens react to it. If all goes well things could get positive really soon.

-Aimee

This is just such a hard situation.

I for one love what I do in SL--but it can all turn sour when I'm ripped off, and then when I try to follow up and no one seems to care, I feel useless.

Yes, I do this for fun, but I admit, I pay for my sim and bills here and there with my SL income.. and I know I'm not the only one paying thier tier with sales. It's not as if I'm saying "I'm quitting because I'm mad at LL", Its that I may have to because I can't support the cost of what I do anymore.

I'm hoping something good comes out of this thread.. it's obvious that the few angry creators is turning into a mob

> I think the time might be better spent having a conversation with the development team

Never fear, I am seeking their feedback on this issue, as well.

Man, Hamlet's got more moves than Jimmy Olsen!