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We are the lag...

Ingrid Ingersoll
Archived
Join date: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,601
04-21-2005 09:09
From: David Valentino
But now my inventory has become a living creature that devours all within it's path. It is a nightmare and beyond the scope of mere humans to destroy.

I can only pray that an act of god will destroy my portion of an asset server and I will be reborn, naked into the world...


LOL. Reign in the beast David. You are it's master.

That worked on so many levels!
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Forseti Svarog
ESC
Join date: 2 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,730
04-21-2005 09:11
From: Agatha Palmerstone
This is why we have prices and markets, in order to allocate scarce resources. It's time to put a price on resources, as was done with land-prims.


i've always assumed that they would move to a pay-for-storage model, like the web-based emails systems that give you a hefty portion as a base, but charge you extra if you run out of room and need more space.

people will always be packrats unless they are incented otherwise... like running out of closet space in your house lol.

blaze, my guess is that an SL shopaholic loves the experience of having new things, so if inventory runs out, many will discard old no-longer-used items to make room for the cool new thing. This won't be universal behavior, but my guess is that it would be the norm. I bet we see a lot more yard sales too LOL. :)
DNA Prototype
Mad Scientist
Join date: 8 Aug 2004
Posts: 179
04-21-2005 09:20
Hehe nice one Eggy.
SL has a immense amount of freedom. Tools are powerful. Not limiting your options to have 1000 prim attachments is powerful. Most companies would restrict freedom to save themselves grief from users complaining about lag. Cool LL realizes that freedom is important. Lag is actually partly a personnal responsibility. One must realize that if they use SL's freedom to its maximum scope lag will increase. Over time, technology will overcome lag on the internet and SL. This is a temporary problem that we pioneers of cyberspace must endure while trailblazing this killer new path.

DNA
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Icon Serpentine
punk in drublic
Join date: 13 Nov 2003
Posts: 858
04-21-2005 09:41
Inventories could be solved if we were able to archive our inventories offline on our own computers. Then we could have a limited inventory size on the SL asset server that would be more akin to a backpack than a magic pocket that holds everything.

Realistically it would be better to clear our inventories of useless stuff we never rez, empty our lost and found folders every once in a while along with our trash folders.

As for the rest of lag -- fewer textures mean fewer creative possibilities. Same with attachments, et al.

Right now I think border-crossing is only difficult for some people but not the entire SL population (I've still yet to have a problem big enough to annoy me). But it's apparently going to be improved by 1.7 so meh.

Best we can do right now is limit the number and complexity of attachments and be more concise with our scripts. We should also all make sure that the textures we upload are 512x512 or less...

and that's about it. We've got what we've got so we'll also have to learn to live with it and do our best to improve it as time goes on.
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David Valentino
Nicely Wicked
Join date: 1 Jan 2004
Posts: 2,941
04-21-2005 09:43
From: Ingrid Ingersoll
LOL. Reign in the beast David. You are it's master.

That worked on so many levels!


I try to..but it speaks to me at night in whispers... :(
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Eggy Lippmann
Wiktator
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
04-21-2005 10:32
From: Rickard Roentgen
lol... now i have the sudden urge to make everything on my property rez when someone comes within sensor range... and die when nobodies been there for 5 minutes. This could be impressive.

It would be impressive had it not been done in beta! ;)
Seriously, don't do it. We used to do that all the time back in the day, to avoid paying taxes on prims. Thing is, sensors cause a lot of lag and so does rezzing things.
If you want to do something like this, make it act on touch and rate-limit your rezzor. Do not rez things in parallel. You can bring a sim to its knees if you rez enough stuff in parallel.
Eggy Lippmann
Wiktator
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
04-21-2005 10:33
From: Forseti Svarog
i've always assumed that they would move to a pay-for-storage model, like the web-based emails systems that give you a hefty portion as a base, but charge you extra if you run out of room and need more space.

You mean like gmail? :)
Chris Wilde
Custom User Title
Join date: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 768
04-21-2005 10:37
gmail i think just increased the storage for free accounts and also supports pop mail now.
cloudy Varmint
Second Life Resident
Join date: 14 Nov 2004
Posts: 59
04-21-2005 10:40
From: Eggy Lippmann
Uh, Chris, it's a song, mmkay, I wasn't calling anyone "children". Where were you in 1985?
And I need to get a new spokesperson? Like I'm some kind of business or something? Eggy is just one man. Widdle ole me. Never hurt a fly, unless you think rants kill kittens.
Developers should have the freedom to do whatever they want, of course. But scripters usually don't cause any lag because they're usually frugal little hermits and they know what they're doing.
It's the wacky TSO refugees who need to have 500-prim kitchens with voice-activated appliances, couches with poseballs, beds with sex animations, totalling 50 listeners, plus fancy timers and sensors and heaps of crap. Not to mention 1024x1024 textures for each of their 50 portraits resting on their fancy animated, voice-activated fireplace.
And it's also those exact same people who complain about lag and think it's a "bug" that LL should "fix", when THEY are the walking lag bombs.
But obviously I cannot point my finger solely at consumers. Developers often think, it's JUST ONE listener, or JUST ONE timer, or JUST ONE sensor. And they think they are very clever, using their little link messages to avoid LSL delays and do stuff in parallel, forgetting the reason why the delays were put in place to begin with.
I got news for you, bubba. That little wad of money you so enjoy GOMing every week, well, it means your JUST ONE is constantly growing, and spreading all over the grid, turning into massive amounts of lag. As a professional you have the responsibility of making your code as resource-friendly as humanly possible. Why use an open listener when you can have a touch-activated llDialog, where the listener would only exist for 5 seconds at a time? Why use a 0.2 second, 96m-range llSensorRepeat for your "security system" when you could use an llVolumeDetect on your doors or something.
Yes, education is a good thing, but no one wants to teach classes.
You can have 9 textures on a single prim. Many people, myself included, have suggested that textures should be limited according to your parcel size, and there should be a limit to how many attachments you can wear.
It gets to the point where I lag in sight of some people (who shall remain nameless:D), and turning away from them improves my fps by an order of magnitude.
The problem is that people would scream bloody murder if you forcibly took away their precious sex balls. We need more INFORMATION AWARENESS. People can trim their lag down to acceptable levels. We need a little dialog box that tells us, you are running X listening scripts and X sensors. Or maybe you could have parcel-specific millisecond counts and percentages for Run Tasks and Run Physics. Even a raw count of how many scripts and textures you have on your parcel would be beneficial.
You want self-government, well, you can start by showing that you are able to govern yourself and then we'll talk about larger-scale government systems.







OFF WITH THEIR BALLS !!!!!!!!
ZsuZsanna Raven
~:+: Supah Kitteh :+:~
Join date: 19 Dec 2004
Posts: 2,361
04-21-2005 10:45
From: Sherrade Stirling
So maybe if we all just stand still, in one spot, naked, hairless and scriptless - there will be no lag!
Won't that be fun! :p



Then we'd all look like this....
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Eggy Lippmann
Wiktator
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
04-21-2005 10:46
From: Chris Wilde
gmail i think just increased the storage for free accounts and also supports pop mail now.

Yup, I <3 gmail. It's continously increasing. Hotmail offers me 2 megs, gmail offers me 2 more megs every day! Storage is essentially free these days. A whole gig of space, to someone buying HDs in bulk, costs what, a quarter?
Sherrade Stirling
Along for the ride
Join date: 28 Aug 2004
Posts: 149
04-21-2005 11:10
From: ZsuZsanna Raven
Then we'd all look like this....


Ha! I dunno, may have to ditch the ears and the tail - are those prims? no scripts right?

and it can't move. But you are getting closer to a lag free world! yippie *rolling eyes*
Eggy Lippmann
Wiktator
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
04-21-2005 11:19
Here's a new concept for you - your freedom ends where other people's freedom begins?
I look just fine, thank you very much, and I never wear attachments :P
Chris Wilde
Custom User Title
Join date: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 768
04-21-2005 11:25
From: Eggy Lippmann
Here's a new concept for you - your freedom ends where other people's freedom begins?

The vagina?
Forseti Svarog
ESC
Join date: 2 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,730
04-21-2005 11:34
From: Eggy Lippmann
Here's a new concept for you - your freedom ends where other people's freedom begins?
I look just fine, thank you very much, and I never wear attachments :P


it IS nice being a simple spheroid ;)
Eggy Lippmann
Wiktator
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
04-21-2005 11:42
Wha? :D
Seriously, it would be much better if people could behave. If LL starts imposing restrictions there's gonna be one whole hell of drama on these forums. I still remember the sheer amount of flack I got when I proposed this whole newfangled thing of tying prims to the size of your parcel!
Khamon Fate
fategardens.net
Join date: 21 Nov 2003
Posts: 4,177
04-21-2005 12:23
From: Eggy Lippmann
Wha? :D
Seriously, it would be much better if people could behave. If LL starts imposing restrictions there's gonna be one whole hell of drama on these forums. I still remember the sheer amount of flack I got when I proposed this whole newfangled thing of tying prims to the size of your parcel!

At least you were proposing a good solution. Tying texture and cycle limits to parcel sizes are good ideas too. Inventory limits are paramount to the continued viability of the asset system. Is it fair to say that the asset system is viable now? Terraforming limits were a mistake. We should've never even brought that up.

It would be nice if people behaved. But even when we understand the causes of lag, we're not prone to voluntarily adhering to reasonable standards because we don't have to. LL are going to have to impose some limitiations on us all. It flies in the face of a freely creative cutting edge environment. But it's necessary for the Grid. Do it for the Grid. All Hail the Central Grid.
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Eggy Lippmann
Wiktator
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
04-21-2005 17:38
We could better educate people and wean them off their wasteful habits by allowing them to know exactly what is on their parcel, what it's doing, and how much of an impact it's having on the sim, letting them compare themselves to the average user. If you could throw in one such automated lag cop into the UI, one that nags you "YOUR DEFAULT TEXTURED CUBE IS TAKING UP 80% OF THIS SERVER'S PROCESSING TIME!", the transition to having overly laggy objects outright returned to their owners (like excessive prims on your parcel are returned) will be more seamless.
Jsecure Hanks
Capitalist
Join date: 9 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,451
04-21-2005 17:40
I'd say we're in the flying high eighties... Or maybe with all this lag we have hit the depression nineties... Now it's time for the emergence of recycling and greener habits, with increased knowledge of our stuff's impact on the environment around us.
Nikolaii Uritsky
Filthy Old Man
Join date: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 671
04-22-2005 00:03
From: Jsecure Hanks
I'd say we're in the flying high eighties... Or maybe with all this lag we have hit the depression nineties... Now it's time for the emergence of recycling and greener habits, with increased knowledge of our stuff's impact on the environment around us.


Sweet Lord, I had a dream about Captain Planet last night and you brought it all back to me. x_X
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