343 Kerry / 195 Bush

That's not any different than the way we're taught to believe in our own righteosness from birth. Which is the lesser bullshit? I'd call it a draw.

Yea, wars are messy.

http://69.31.93.156/NotThere.wmv

Chip... um... not ANY different... you can't possibly be serious... we aren't taught that we should KILL the infadels. Not even close to a draw.

Typical… reading what you want to hear. Where did I say he didn’t have a plan? All I said was that he needs to tell us what it is. I hate Bush and you should too just isn’t going to win Kerry anything.



That’s such BS… Kerry and his boys have dissected the war and focused on every POSSIBLE misstep and used that to paint the worst POSSIBLE picture. We ARE winning this war. Wars take TIME to win. People die in wars. Bush has a wonderful exit strategy that I believe in. In fact, even Kerry agrees with Bush but clothes it like it is his idea. Training the Iraqi people to defend themselves and slowly turning it over to them is what we are doing. It is working and will work given enough time.



See… there ya go… hind sight is 20-20 isn’t it?



Kerry did NOT say it. EVERYONE did not say it. That is a generalization and false statement.



So… when our boys on that Carrier had finished their tour of duty and were headed home after a very long, tough deployment the President of the United States flew there and spoke to them in person. He thanked them for their service and COMPLETING THEIR MISSION which they did. To misquote that and say that he thought the war was over is another popular liberal lie.



You know what… I love that quote. As a matter of fact I would like nothing more than every terrorist in the world to go to Iraq where our boys can send them to Ala as soon as possible.



I don’t get your line of thought here. What about that bothers you?



Like I said… GREAT… let’s get all of there asses in one place… draw a line in the sand… and kill every last one of them. I say well done President Bush.

Oh… to say that they ALL are not a part of Saddam’s regime reveals how little you know about it.



Um… I DON’T CARE IF THERE WERE WEAPONS AT THE EXACT TIME WE INVADED OR NOT… is that clear enough… Saddam needed to be taken down and we did it… period.



Well genius… last I checked we were doing exactly that. Just ask the Russian’s how successful an all out attack in Afghanistan would be would ya? Our plan is working PERFECTLY in Afghanistan. They just has elections in that country for the first time where over 2,5 MILLION voted including women for the first time. Now that is a civil rights dream and all of you libs have Bush to thank for that.



YEAH… we sure do Neehai and if you don’t think that too then you are the ignorant one.



Obviously YOU don’t give a shit about them. I am not even sure how a good liberal can say that being that we are freeing them from a horrible murderer who was practicing genocide. I thought liberals were all for civil liberties and freedom. Guess not!

Ummm, actually you have this one wrong Billy. He was there to announce the end of Major Combat. I know this because I was on the ground near Baghdad and it was aired on the BBC which was all we could pull in on our shitty shortwave. I am usually quite republican but will take issue on this with you before Neehai dissects you. This statement was in fact not taken very much out of context and the Mission Accomplished quote was never actually uttered by GWB. It was printed up on a banner by the servicemembers on that carrier.

Indoctrination is indoctrination, Billy. You can argue the subjective merits of what's being indoctrinated but at the root of it there isn't much difference. We have the supposed superiority of this country drilled into our heads from the moment we're born. To people in other parts of the world it's just as frightening and distasteful as the Islamic belief that we're all infidels. This country is every bit as much controlled by religious fundamentalism and nationalism. It's just harder to see it in yourself than in others. Just like with accents. Everyone has one but you. The Middle East certainly hasn't cornered the market on fundamentalism and xenophobia.

That's actually not true either. It was printed up by the White House. After they've been repeatedly ridiculed for it they've decided to lie and say that the servicemen on the carrier did it of their own accord. In truth they had absolutely nothing to do with it.

Well... it in fact WAS the end of the first phase of the war. And that phaze WAS completed... and yes, the words "mission accomplished" were never uttered like Kerry and his bunch would like for you to believe. I agree.

This little story almost brought a tear to my eye. The nostalgia, the patriotism, it's all so moving. However, someone else did point out that it is just fiction. You can actually google "end of major combat operations" to see an endless list of sources for what was actually said. (okay, not endless but a lot)


All terrorists go to Allah? I didn't know this. Now I do. Thanks.

Let's see the proof of that.

and yes, the words "mission accomplished" were never uttered like Kerry and his bunch would like for you to believe.

Yea, they were just on a big honking banner behind his head. I wonder where those crazy Kerry people came up with the idea that Bush thought the mission was accomplished.

They came up with this story of it being the Navy's idea a full five months after the fact. Pfft.

That is absolutely the most assinine reason I've ever heard to vote for a President.

If you're not actually voting FOR someone, then you just shouldn't vote.


Edit: Better idea... Why don't you vote for Nader? He isn't Bush, either.

Because nader is a idiot. Kerry actually has a plan for the country, nader just wants to sit around for 4 years.

And that was the most assinine post I have ever read.

+5 INTERNET SKILLS TO YOU KIND SIR!

Nor are 99.99% of Muslims.. funny that. The Muslim faith is about peace and love -- pretty much the same as the Christian faith.

As for sending them to Allah.. I doubt any true Muslim would beleives that they (the terrorists) are being sent to God (which is, btw, what Allah is - their name for god).

And why would you want to send the terrorists to heaven anyways? Thats not a very nice thought at all - because at the root level there very very very little difference between the Muslim faith and Christianity - the major sticking point being the role of Jesus.

Allah - Jehovah - God... all the same dude.. Paradise, Heaven... same place.


Addendum:

4 Months ago I saw 4 children following Mommy's example by wearing T Shirts that said 'God Hates Gays' -- while waving signs citing passages of Leviticus and slogans such as 'Sodomites will burn in HELL!'

There are people worldwide who have perverted the teachings of religions for their own twisted purposes... America, and Christianity are no different.

Siggy
(and for the record... I'm an athiest)

Siggy, I do believe you to be an intelligent person but your ignorance about religious doctrine is astounding.



The Koran, something you should actually read before trying to compare with Christianity, is a completely different faith than Christianity. The Koran says that there will be a time for all infidels, that’s non-Muslins including Christians and athiests alike, to be killed. They ALL believe that! The difference is that some believe that the time is now, others believe it is yet to come. You would find very few Muslims or Christians who are knowledgeable about the two faiths that would actually say that the two faiths are “pretty much the same”. That is a statement made out of an utter lack of knowledge.



Again, your lack of knowledge is amazing. Allah and the Christian God are VERY VERY VERY different as is their view of Heaven which they call Jannah. First of all Allah has the full range of emotions from love to hate. The Christian God is synonymous only with Love.

Furthermore you say that you “doubt any true Muslim would beleives that they (the terrorists) are being sent to God”. You obviously know very little about Holy wars which are called Jihads. In a Jihad any Muslim that dies for that cause does just that. He goes straight to Jannah (heaven) to receive the rewards of the righteous that include unlimited food and drink (including alcohol, which is forbidden to Muslims), enormous palaces staffed with multitudes of servants, and perfect, perpetually-virgin spouses. (The number of spouses is variously quoted as 70 and 72; the former figure comes from a commentary on the Quran , the latter derives from several hadith) One Muslim scholar described the houri thus:

"Each time we sleep with a houri we find her virgin. Besides, the penis of the Elected never softens. The erection is eternal; the sensation that you feel each time you make love is utterly delicious and out of this world and were you to experience it in this world you would faint. Each chosen one [ie Muslim] will marry seventy houris, besides the women he married on earth, and all will have appetising vaginas." Al-Suyuti (d.1505)

In recent decades, this belief has been stressed by some organizations, such as Hamas and al-Quaeda, as a way to induce teenage males to become suicide bombers. The excessive stress on this belief is seen by moderate Muslims as a deviation from the traditional Muslim emphasis that it is only the five pillars of faith that bring one to Heaven.

This is what the Koran says and Muslims who believe what it says believe this to be true.


Heaven that is like the one above doesn’t exist. I in fact would much rather that they were not killed at all but turned away from the kind of hate that the Koran teaches and turn to peace and love, which is what the Bible teaches. That is what I REALLY would like for the record. I said that “I would like nothing more than every terrorist in the world to go to Iraq where our boys can send them to Allah as soon as possible.” Because I think that many of the terrorists will not stop until they kill us or are killed. They believe that they will go to heaven if that happens and even though their view of heaven does not exist I would rather they die than our men and women.

The Muslim view of Jesus is altogether different which you acknowledge. Muslims do not believe that Jesus was the Son of God but just a profit. Not only do they not believe that he was crucified and died on the cross, they believe that he is still alive but has been taken up to heaven where he will wait until he returns to Earth where he will then kill all of the Christians, his followers, as well as every other infadel (that;s you if you are not a Muslim).

The Christian view of Jesus is that he was fully God as well as fully Human. God's son sent to Earth where he died as a sacrafice for everyone's sin, Christians and non-christians alike. He paid the price so you and I don't have to. His grace and forgivness is availabloe for all who chose to accept it and believe in Him.



As demonstrated above this statement is made out of a complete ignorance of the two DIFFERENT religions.



Just because some idiot had her kids wear that shirt does NOT mean that’s what the vast majority of Christians believe. The Bible says that it is a sin. It does NOT say that it is a worse sin than any other sin. Some Christians have lost sight that we are ALL sinners with our own set of sins. My sin may not be homosexuality but my own sin is no worse. I am no better or worse than any of you. The Bible says that God loves me despite my sins and he loves EVERYONE despite their sins weather homosexuality is one of them or not. God does NOT hate gays, he does NOT hate murderers, thieves, adulterers, liars, cheaters or whatever other label you want to give someone and their sins. We are commanded simply to love one another. We all should love all people regardless of their sexuality.



Finally something I agree with you about. This is not consistent with the Christian Bible and what it teaches. Just because someone claims to be a Christian and does what you say does not mean that ALL Christians should be lumped with them and portrayed to believe the same thing. Christians should be held accountable for the teachings of the Bible, that is all. That is the basis for our belief, not the misguided, twisted views of a few people who call themselves Christians.



I don’t know what you mean by this so I will not comment.



That is not surprising since your knowledge about religion is so limited.

For the record, I am a Christian.

Spoken like a true indoctrinated Christian, Billy. Christianity, Islam, and Judaism all trace their roots back to Abraham, which is why they are collectively known as the Abrahamic religions. They incorporate the same people and many of the same stories (for example, the story of young Jesus giving life to clay pigeons is found in the infancy gospel of Thomas and also in the Koran). They are all essentially the same religion that have grown apart after the fact.



The only thing different is your subjective interpretation. The Christian God is synonymous only with love? I wouldn't call casting non-believers into a lake a fire where they'll suffer eternal torment and agony as a very loving act. Go have a read through Leviticus or Genesis and tell me how "loving" the Christian God is. Hope you don't like shellfish.



Uhhh, loving.... right.



So you're arging that all Muslims are literalists? That strikes me as especially hypocritical considering how much Christians cherry pick the Bible and ignore the bits that don't fit the "loving God" mantra. Siggy is saying that, like Christians, most moderate mainline Muslims do not take the Koran as a literal set of instructions. Only the most fundamentalist do, just as is true of Christians. Let me give you a couple of examples...



That would be Jesus advocating killing disobediant children.



That would be Jesus espousing family values.



That would be Jesus asking for non-believers to be killed. Shall I keep going? Those are NT quotes by the way.



I can see how well it worked on you, as you sit here and tell us that all Muslims are hateful and murderous. How very loving of you.



And how, pray tell, is that different than the rapture when all non-Christians will be killed?



And the fact that Jesus is in both texts and will come back to earth to facilitate the judgement when all non-believers will be slaughtered makes the two religions different how exactly? They differ in minor details. The similarities are much greater than the differences. You are arguing from indoctrination, not from objectivity. You're showing your own ignorance far more than Siggy is showing his.



Just as most Muslims do not believe they should be killing infidels. We should call extremist Christians the exception rather than the rule, but all Muslims are extremists who believe they should kill Christians? lol. That's called bigotry.

(edited for typos)

I loved this sentence. I also believe Jesus is all about profit.

lol Neehai.

I tried to read the koran online. I found it really distasteful - lots of anti-semetic references and I'm not even Jewish. I am sorry but this religion is alien to me.

Actually that is the most assinine thing I have ever heard.

Who says you can't choose the lesser of two evils. Hell, huge portions of people lives are about picking the least offensive option. Do you live in the real world?

Hell, I'd like a house on the Riveria. However, my choices are an apartment in the city or a apartment in the suburbs. One comes with high rent and noise the other comes with a long commute and the need to have a car.

People in the REAL assinine world make these choices everyday. Asking people not to vote because they aren't head over heels in love with one candidate is just stupid. Discouraging voting is stupid.

That argument just makes me want to spit.

I apologize for the length of this post but the accusations that were raised needed a thorough response. I truly hope that this helps at least one person in their understanding of the differences in the Christian and Islam religions.



I will take that as a compliment coming from you Chip. Thank you!



Wow! Another misguided, misinformed, uneducated spokesman who thinks that Judaism, Christianity and Islam, which is different from the Nation of Islam, are all the same thing. This is a worldwide forum that spans across many nations and religious beliefs. Is there ANYONE who professes to be any of these 3 religions that agrees with Chip here?

I will answer that for you Chip. NO! Just because all 3 religions have SOME of there stories in common does NOT mean that they are even remotely the same thing. To say that they are is idiotic and being ignorant of the facts. I could give you endless differences in their doctrine but this post is already going to be waaaay too long.

You use this story as an example of how they are the same thing but the koran is made up of mostly commandments and warnings with only a small part being stories. The majority of the Bible is made up of stories.

Here are a few things the koran teaches about hatred towards Christians and Jews:

"Do not take the Jews and Christians for friends"
(Surah 5:51)
____________________

"fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness"
(Surah 9:123)
____________________

"fight those who do not believe in Allah"
(Surah 9:29)
____________________

"and fight them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah"
(Surah 8:39)
____________________

"fight them; Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace"
(Surah 9:14)
____________________

"Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them"
(Surah 9:30)
____________________

"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
(Surah 8:12)
____________________

That last one is chilling with the recent events in Iraq.



I suppose I am going to really have to go through each of these and explain how wrong you are. God gives us all a choice while we are here on this earth. To go to heaven through our beliefe in Jesus or to chose to not believe and to go to hell. God honors the choice you make. Ask me a specific question and I will try to answer you but in the interest of time I will not interpret the entire books of Genesis and Leviticus. I will narrow your assignment to just 1 book. Go read the book of John and tell me that the Christian God is not loving.



These stories are in fact different in that the Koran says that Abraham was to sacrifice Ishmael while the Bible says he was to sacrifice Isaac. Here are just a sampling of a few other things that are vastly different:

Bible: Noah's ark landed on Mt. Ararat. (Genesis 8:4)

Koran: Noah's ark landed on Mt. Judi. (Surah 11:44)
____________________

Bible: Abraham's father was Terah. (Genesis 11:31)

Koran: Abraham's father was Azar. (Surah 6:74)
____________________

Bible: Pharaoh's daughter adopted Moses. (Exodus 2:1-10)

Koran: Pharaoh's wife adopted Moses. (Surah 28:8-9)
____________________

Bible: Jesus was crucified. (Mark 15:25-32)

Koran: Jesus was not crucified. (Surah 4:157-15
____________________

Bible: Abraham lived in the Valley of Hebron. (Genesis 13:18, 23:2, 35:27)

Koran: Abraham lived in Mecca. (Surah 14:37)
____________________

Bible: God loves us even though we sin. (Romans 5:

Koran: God does not love sinners. (Surah 2:190)
____________________

Bible: Husbands to love wife as themselves. (Eph. 5:25-2

Koran: Husbands may beat their wives. (Surah 4:34)
____________________

Let’s go ahead and focus on the story you cite. This story is about how God tested Abraham’s faith and obedience just as you have said. Did he have him kill Isaac? No. He know that he would provide another sacrifice, a ram, and that Abraham would not have to do it. It was a specific test to see if Abraham in fact would have enough faith and obedience to follow God’s commandments, which he did. How can you even begin to use this to point out how God is not loving when it proves that he in fact is?

Abraham should have paid a price for his sin but did not. God provided the ram which was entangled in a thorn bush. This story in fact foretells of another who would be sacrificed for us all, Jesus Christ, who would wear a crown of thorns. Loving… yes, He loved us so much that he provided a final sacrifice, Jesus, to pay the price for us all.



Once again you know very little about the two religions Chip. This paragraph above all else you said proves it. Am I saying that all Muslims are literalists… well Chip… if they are really Muslims… YES!!!!! This is another fundamental difference between Muslims and Christians. They believe that the koran is a perfect document TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY. Every word Chip. To question a word, to even question a punctuation in the Koran is punishable by death and eternal damnation. Did you REALLY not know that????

On the other hand, Christians do NOT believe that the Bible is perfect. It was written by men who were inspired by God but it is not infallible. The Bible is to be taken as a yardstick where we are to hold our lives up to be measured. It is ok to question the Bible without being killed or condemned to Hell.



Jesus was actually quoting 2 old testament scriptures. The first id Exodus 20:12 which says to honor your father and mother. The second scripture is Exodus 21:17. This is a passage that is in the middle of a bunch of other statements that are similar. These scriptures were there for a specific purpose. They were guides to the Judges of that time, not rules for personal relationships. These rules were meant to tell the judges to make punishments that fit the crime. This is also where the “an eye for an eye” comes from.

Jesus was speaking directly to a group of religious leaders called Pharisees who had stopped following the laws of Moses. They were not honoring their father and mother at all and were saying that gifts that should have been given to them were Corban (a gift devoted to God) and being such they were justifying shirking their duties to their parents. Jesus does NOT say that disobedient children should be put to death but that the Pharisees should not set aside the commandments of God in order to observe their own traditions.



Once again you fall woefully short in your shallow effort at religious philosophy. This is an acknowledgment that being a Christian was not going to be easy. Back then the majority of followers were Jewish and if one person became a Christian then yes, families would be divided. It was a prophecy telling them and us to expect that. He was NOT saying that a house divided was a good thing or what he commanded.

Here is what He says about family values:
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her. (Ephesians 5:25)

each one of you must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband. (Ephesians 5:33)

Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for it is right. "Honor your father and mother", which is the first commandment with a promise, "that it may go well with you and that you may enjoy long life on the earth. Fathers do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord. (Ephesians 6:1-4)



This goes on and on… once again you are wrong Chip. The words that you quote here are from the parable of the King’s ten servants. Without taking the time to break down the entire parable I will just say that a parable is a story with a meaning behind it. The quote was from the king in the parable, not from Jesus. Jesus was not telling his followers to go out and kill their enemies. As a matter of fact you ignore the passage that everyone knows where Jesus says to love our enemies. He says it so clear that nobody could possibly misunderstand.

“you have heard that it was said, “Love your neighbor and hate your enemy”. But I tell you: Love your enemues and pray for those that persacute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes the sun to rise on the evil and good, and sends rain on the righteous and unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what rewards will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you only greet your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do nopt even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matthew 5:43-48



I am just saying what is in the Koran Chip. I am sorry if you do not like it but it is what it is. I am not sure what that has to do with you thinking I am loving or not.



Chip… please find the word rapture in the Bible for us all. You can’t because it isn’t there. Feel free to cite some more scripture and I will look at it but do not quote something that is not there.



Muslims that believe in the Koran DO Chip. That is EXACTLY what it says.



No Chip. It is called the teachings of the Koran. Go educate yourself.

I will not even respond to the bigotry reference as it is an accusation made out of a lack of understanding anything about me.

*grabs popcorn and waits for Chip's response*

I wonder if it is possible for a believer to view this discussion from the viewpoint that Chip is discussing? It seems to me that they dismiss other views (and faiths) as utter nonsense, since thiers is the one 'true' faith.

For me, they are all the same: rubbish.

Thank you Billy. That comment just invalidated everything you've said, in my view anyway.

Oh, and Billy, he said they were 'essentially' the same, which from reading your posts and his posts, they sure sound alot alike.

I am not sure why you say that Juro. How could anyone with a thorough understanding of the two religions even say that they are even "essentially" the same? You do not even have to be a believer to acknowledge that. Please explain your thought process. I am interested in hearing it.