Destruction of intricate builds (long)

I spent part of yesterday showing a friend who has just started SL around. We went for a boat ride from Federal to Varney (not an easy feat mind you with lag lol) and I was struck by how many beautiful builds have been taken down or gutted. I have to say that as a long time player, I am still very saddened by the 1.2 changes.

The land availability problems were not solved at all, since now people are grabbing as much land as they can get their hands on to have the prims (I now own 12,000 meters of land). And the sad part is that does not even buy that many prims. You just have people owning a patchwork of land in a sim, which is going to restrict someone from genuinely expanding the size of their land if they want to.

I am not a wasteful person with prims. I look for every possible way to do something in as few of prims as possible, using textures, hollowing and other methods to try to achieve a decent looking effect. I have always done this. I do however love to build. None of this is a financial issue for me, but in that regard I do find the prices quite burdensome for a lot of players who would otherwise be creating incredible things. This seems to have most adversely affected the people creating the content for the game world in the first place, which to me seems very short sighted.

Also, in making this dramatic change, LL did not provide anything to help us cut prim counts. No larger prims, no new shapes (how many prims are always wasted on trying to do stairs), no new scripting capabilities like indicating where a texture has been clicked on, etc.. Thus, the only option has been to delete and reduce, which in some cases is a good thing, but as I saw yesterday, most often it is not. I don't particularly want to see everything in this game in a vending machine.

I recognize that something had to change, and I am not certain exactly how I would have changed it if I were in LL's position. However, I have to say that so far, I do not like 1.2 at all. It has decreased my interest in SL dramatically, which I did not think something could do. I know there are people who are very happy with it because now they can build, but I am sure once they slam into the prim limit on their land and realize you cannot even build a house and furnish it without taking on a high monthly fee, I am sure a lot of that support will wear off.

Somewhere in another post, I saw a Linden state that they are going to make some more changes before January 12th, but have seen nothing since then. Hopefully it won't just be to solve the prim count on the low end, but also on the high end as well.

The casual SL player seems to be the only one who has won out in these changes, and that is a shame, as casual players won't return if there is no compelling reason for them to do so, and it is the more involved players who create a lot of the reasons to come back.

* tirade adjourned *

I can't state my opinions as well as you but, i have to reply anyway!

All my reply really is though, is a reiteration of a reply i posted in a thread you started before about all of this.

The Lindens did do something... added another 50% to the amount of prims available per sim before. They also made it fairer for some people. While in your eyes it may not be fair to be allocated prims according to how much land you own... to others it is a welcomed relief.

For those of us who lived in sims where we couldn't build more than a basic house and a chair because of prim heavy builds... it will be a breath of fresh air. In fact, we're so used to cutting back severely on what we have... some may never reach their prim allocation... or can at least rez a few extra unnecessary things if they have prims left over to use.

I'll agree... some builds were prim heavy and very beautiful and it is a shame to see those builds go. I would love it if the Lindens could find some way to give over prim allocations to others... i would be happy to do that if it were possible. But also speaking from the point of view of someone who lived in Federal and Stillman (both of which went up to 99% object usage within 2 weeks of me moving there) i welcome the new idea.

I guess it's just frustrating to see people who have a ton of land and probably 30 times the amount of available prims that i had pre 1.2 still moaning about the prim limits.

Victoria,

The changes they made would have been completely unworkable had they not raised the prim limits by 50%. I recognize the technical limits, and the reasons for it. I don't like having what I said categorized as moaning about something, however. I lived in a full sim for quite awhile (I have lived in Federal since May) - it was happily at around 70-80% for months, and then suddenly spiked over the course of a week and remained at 99-100% until 1.2. Was it fun? No, it wasn't. As I said, I recognized that the change had to happen, but I am still entitled to have problems with it. One of the main problems that caused the severe prim shortages before was the lack of new sims as the player population continued to grow at a rapid pace. At a time that people were clamoring for more land and falling all over each other, they opened 6 vehicle sims that remain almost unused, and a wasted Lindenworld that people barely attended.

If you look through my previous posts, I was not someone who was bitching about prim hogging and full sims. I will however continue to think that 1.2 was a rushed, short sighted change that will have a negative impact on the creativity of the game world if measures are not put into place to address more involved players. If you had to rip apart a build that you spent a large amount of time creating, I think you would understand a little more.

And as a PS to your post, in this new system, you have the same access to prims I do, if you would like to fork over $225 for a lifetime membership and take on $75 a month.

1.2 marks a fundamental shift in that you need to pay USD for land.

This is not necessarily a bad thing, but it is a big shift.

I think we need to consider the different between Content Providers and Content Consumers. The majority of people who play regularly are Content Providers: we create stuff for other people to use, or just for our own pleasure.

If we want to raise enough capital to buy SL land, we need to think abuot our target markets carefully. The target market for us is not so much other Content Providers, because this will be a zero-sum game, but the Content Consumers.

Content Consumers are people who arrive in the game and who want to use stuff in the game - content. They have a job in RL and very little free time and theyre prepared to pay - a lot - to make the most of what little free time they have.

This is our target market.

One thing is wrong with this picture. We can all see what it is. The Content Consumers have no in-game resources to buy stuff!!! and yet they are our primary market. What to do?

Azelda

The thing that the "Content Consumers" can do is spend time at the builds and other attractions that they like. This will contribute to dwell for the land owner, and dwell amounts have been greatly increased since the advent of 1.2. I had mixed feelings about dwell, but I am beginning to think it's much fairer than the old voting box system; it automatically measures who has visited where and how long they remained. This is one more step toward the Lindens' master plan (as I see it) of having us create stuff that other people enjoy and visit, instead of just making stuff that we like for ourselves. If you can make enough on dwell, you could feasibly pay for more land and have more resources at your disposal with which to build. Perhaps the Lindens will adjust downward the amount of $L's it takes to pay for more land, I guess only time will tell.

I took down a build that I really like before 1.2 was announced. I did it because the sim I was in was getting full, and I was using an inordinate amount of prims for the amount of land I owned. It really, really sucked because I like the build... but the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, IMHO.

The new system made me nervous, because as a builder, or a "content creator" or whatever you want to call me today, I was worried that my building abilities would be severely curtailed.

It hasn't, yet.

I've always built things with SL in mind... why build a toilet, if your guy can't go to the bathroom? Why build a bed, if you can't sleep/have sex in it? As an extension to that, why build a bedroom/bathroom, because of the same reasons?

Instead, I build with SL's limitations and abilities in mind... wide, open areas, with in-flight access points (landing decks or what have you) . And you know? Without all the extra furniture and 3-bedroom necessities, you can have a really nice build for a lot less prims.

I'm one of those people that used an ornate amout of prims prior to 1.2... I know, I've been told so many times and had to cut down three of my builds drastically because of it. I see the new "limits" as a challenge, but not an insurmountable one.

For once I can look forward to going through a Sim and not flying by a 2 acre, 3-bedroom, 2.5 bath meticulous recreation of someone's dream house. Nothing wrong with that, I guess, but I don't really like it, and it kinda removes the surreality of the Second Life experience if you see a shower stall and toilet combo every 50 yards.

What I HAVE been seeing is more novel approaches to architecture. Curving, massive skystructures that are gleaming white. Angular tubes and contraptions that serve as a house. This is what second life is made for. It's not made for trailer parks and townhouses. It's made for giant seashells, and purple gnomes, and floppy clocks, and whatever else surreal thing you can think of!

This is a step in the right direction, I think, and I can't wait for everyone to realize it

LF

Ok, I need at least a sim for building an MMORPG type thing. Not sure if dwell bonus will cover that?

Azelda

Do you need a whole sim for an MMORPG? Could you possibly start smaller? Could you create something that, after your initial investment for the land, would be self-sustaining because of it popularity (i.e., charge a user fee)?

Again, I think this is what the Lindens are going for: If you want to have a whole bunch of land and prims in-game, you'd better make it pay for itself, either through player popularity or being willing to fork out the L$'s or RL$'s. SL is, after all, a business.

While I agree with you to a degree, Beryl, LL has publically stated this is not about the money, and actually in this model they will actually make less money than they were making before. Hell, I would have supported raising taxes above what they have done. I know different people disagree about this topic, and that's cool - I will pay the monthly fee because SL currently has value to me.

I think dwell sustaining land use is unrealistic, however with the land fees what they are - if they were reduced, I would say that is a viable option that I support, but having seen the strange dwell payouts ($200 on average daily on my property but on an evening where I had 20+ people for over an 8 hour period solidly, $600), it just does not seem to work.

In the end, I will be fine - I have the RL resources to pay what I want to LL to sustain my level of fun in SL. My original post was about the sadness of seeing the builds of others go away. Contrary to what Lordfly said, I think SL has a place for builds of all kind, including beautiful homes, with beds, baths and beyond. We each have different goals and ideals in this game, and I for one would rather see a beautifully built home than a melting clock.

I have actually increased the size of my build since 1.2, and will continue to change and revise my builds as it suits me. I was only sorry to see some very cool builds be gutted, and disheartened at seeing the "Woah this is great! I have been here for 10 minutes and I can finally take out a sofa" posts. I much preferred the first come, first serve system we had before, even when I bumped up against it myself.

From what I've been noticing, prim limits are harsh, frankly. I'm buying up land in Taber to support the expansion of my shop which I've had for a year now and whose small plot (and, I think, a very reasonable build) now means that simply to maintain my shop (much less expand, which I'd like to do... soon... call it a Lucidity 1 Year Anniversary Special) I have to take land that could be used by other people for more creative means. I don't know that this change helps the spirit of the game, but I'll wait and see.

Beryl, I seem to relate best with what you're saying. I, too, had to remove a build I really really loved (in an uber sentimental kinda way) because of prim limits--and I relate with the originator of this thread in that the reason why I could not keep my build was because tiny blocks of land all over the sim were bought up. However, going back to what Beryl said, what's good for one is not best for all, and I'm okay with taking down my build if it means others can build what they like to build.

Brief tangential comment:



Stair builders: if you don't need your stair steps to be visible from below, you can reduce the number of prims by 50% by using a cut block that's lying on its side. One prim can then act as two steps.

Christiano- I am afraid you will be correct as far as a lot of cool builds being changed. I dont think there is a corelation between having real life dollars and creative output. (present company excluded of course). This may mean some folks just will not be in game long as they can not afford it --its that simple.

Beryl- Dwell is okay. I personally would still like a system that when i see something cool that I can somehow help the creator without having to sit on their land for awhile. Something like the voting booths were ...I mean look where a lot of dwell goes and I am not sure I like this trend in sl.

well 1.2 has good and bad .....I just hope the good outweighs the bad. Time will tell. One thing we know if this does not help the Lindens out getting more folks or keeping folks ..things wil change again.

** deleted **

An interesting thread. Along with LF I spend much of my creative time building homes. Yes, I have seen some intricate builds go but I am not convinced that it is always the only option for the owners. Sometimes perhaps, but not always. If an intricate build is something really special, then it will be visited and produce dwell revenue, or would be attractive enough for a group to take on. Some of them I have looked at quite closely (always looking to learn) and could be optimised significantly without greatly reducing the detail. In some cases the owners need to move to somewhere they can purchase sufficient land to support them.

What 1.2 has done is forced people to manage themselves, and has created a greater need for really good texturers. I also find it quite refreshing to be able to ask those I build for exactly how many prims I should munch up - its a challenge.

I recently managed to create a period Tudor house with upstairs room, in just 16 prims (20 once working doors were added) here in Taber. It has, I am sure, made me a better builder.

Just want to add my thoughts to this discussion. Some very good points have been made from *both sides* of the issue at hand.

For the most part, I am a supporter of v1.2. I see the great things that can happen because of it, and I see the advantage that new users (who are not so gung-ho business minded as I was) will have when first starting out in the game. I see that people will now be able to build within a particular limit and not worry that their neighbor will build something that will keep the original person from being able to build anything at all due to 100% object use in the Sim.

As someone who has lived in Federal from day one, I have lived and delt with the 100% object limit on a daily basis (though like Cris stated, it was at about 75% or so just a little over a month ago). I even managed to continue to grow while we were at the 100% limit because each day it would drop by 1% or 2% due to everyone in the Sim reworking their builds to allow for more building. But I know all too well the frustration of wanting to build and not being able to.

However, the three things I hate about 1.2 are: some of the most incredible builds are having to be taken down, the unbelievably low number of prims allowed per amount of land, and the absurd L$ costs for land.

As an explorer, there has never been a day in SL that I have not come across something so facinating that it took my breath away. The sheer creativeness of the SL community is what sold me on the game. To see so many wonderful builds come down due to the new version is a heartache. Some can be scaled back, yes, but some never used a single prim more than what was needed, and to take away from the build would ruin it. For many, with the now extreamly low number of prims per land allotment, the new version means a stifle to what they can and cannot build. Yes, we can all benefit from learning tricks to keeping prims to a minimum in our builds (we should have already been doing this in most cases). But I know there are many builds that would not exist had these limits been in place, and the fact that they are coming down is very sad to see.

The amount of L$ it currently costs to maintain land (if you choose not to go the RL$ route) is also very harsh for many. I have very little RL$ to spend on the game, even though I *love* the game and love creating in it. So my only chance at future growth is with L$. I am scaleing down my build and turning to vendor boxes to sell my wares. I refuse to stop creating and I will manage. Unfortunatly, I have always sold my clothing and other items at very low prices. Nothing has pleased me more than to watch a brand new person come into my shop and thank me up and down that they could actually afford to buy my items. My items are not "cheap". I believe they are well done and I do have a lot of customers. But I love offering low prices and it keeps me on my toes to continue to create new items since many buy up every new thing I put out.

The unfortunate part comes in the fact that due to how low my prices are, it will take me a long long time to build up the L$ to be able to expand in the game (if I wanted or needed to). I will not be raising my prices unless suddenly the L$ becomes so easy to come by that it is a moot issue (though I doubt this will happen), so it is going to be a struggle for me because the RL funds are just not there for me and the L$ for land is just so much.

I'm an optomist though. And my faith is in LL. As we see these things happening around us, it is good to have disscussion like this. Bringing our thoughts and feelings to the table so the Lindens can read them and look at the issues from various angles. Hopefully something can be done about some of these issues. Something that can be a good compromise for us no matter where our opinion lies in the debate.

> I do find the prices quite burdensome for a lot of players
> who would otherwise be creating incredible things

I don't think the Lindens want people creating incredible things, personally. I can't tell you what I think they want, and my opinions may change as my issues gets resolved, but looking at it from my current standpoint: I can't honestly say I feel they want people creating cool content.

> and that is a shame, as casual players won't return if there
> is no compelling reason for them to do so

It is, because the world has potential to be another IRC (hang out) or another World Wide Web (means of sharing art and knowledge, while bringing people together). However, if they keep tightening the noose around developers' throats, they will lose out in the long run to things like There, TSO, or the web itself.

That's my opinion now, and until it changes, I'm sticking with it.

I categorised it as moaning purely because this is not the first post i've seen by you on this topic. My opinion is that it's moaning... if that's not yours then that's fine. We're here to voice opinions... not neccesarily fact. And I don't recalls ever accusing you of "bitching".

I too think it was a rushed decision... i also am saddened that builds have had to be taken down. My first concenr upon hearing about 1.2 was for the people who had worked so hard to build up what they have... and for those who had put so much time and effort into intricate builds.

The one thing that mainly bugs me is how some keep refering to this method of prim allocation as if they have taken prims away from us all. They haven't... they've added. And I know there was no allocation before... and fairness is a relative term, but i'm just speaking from the point of view of someone who never had many prims to work with because of others who had very prim heavy builds.

I apologise now if this post sounds stressy.. i just get on my high horse sometimes :\ This is just my opinion and i do agree with you on quite a bit of what you've said. My rant's over now <g>

Victoria,

You are quite right that prims have not technically been taken away, but a lot of the freedom that previous players enjoyed has been. At the same time, to approach even close to the same level of creative freedom that I enjoyed before, I have to shell out a significant amount more money, thus getting less service than I had at 14.95 a month for multuple times that amount, which has left me with some animosity about the changes.

You are also right, it is not my first post on the topic - I posted prior to 1.2, and right after it. Now as the changes are about to take full hold, I see the results of it, and that is what prompted this one.

It is not even that I want to be able to build over anyone else. I wish everyone had the freedom to build what they set their minds to. 1.2 just set a reality in that did not exist for the past year in SL, so for a lot of longtime players it has been a very difficult change to swallow.

I will be fine, and I will pay the monthly fee, and continue to play SL. I just feel really bad for people who invested an amazing amount of time and care into building things and then watching so much of that go away. The bottom line is the whole thing just makes me sad, and as you have seen from previous posts, I don't remain silent about my displeasure (or my pleasure for that matter, when I like something, I post about that as well in equal measure).

Anyway, I respect your opinion as well Victoria, and as I have said, I don't know what the ideal change would have been. Maybe it is just that change is painful and in general sucks, and that is what I am moaning about


Cristiano

Christiano, I have seen your builds and they are quite extrodinary. I could only hope to someday achieve your level of creativity and your ability to manipulate those little shapes into marvelous creations. I am however a 1.2 advocate, not because I like all of the changes but because I think that the bigger picture is leaning in the right direction.
The main problem that I see in the immediate future is that the many hyper-creative folks will be stifled for a short period of time during the change over and the user content will suffer. This will likely cause the newbie presence to be effected slightly, as there will be a decrease in intricate builds and activities. But I think this will be temporary.
With every change in infrastructure (rl or sl), there is a period of flux. Nobody has any clue where the changes will lead or what the future holds. But I do believe in the awesome creative spirit that lives in SL. I believe it is that very spirit that will carry the best creators to the next level. Please don't give up (and possible bring some new ones out of the pixels)
I have seen in my short time here that sl is a society rich with renneisance like ideas and the skill to bring them to fruition. 1.2 may pose as a minor speedbump but it is definately one worth overcoming.
Just my 2 bytes for whatever they are worth...I hope everyone keeps astounding me!

Thank you for the wonderful compliment - it means a lot to me

I have gone back and forth in my mind about 1.2, tried to justify it to friends who were tearing stuff down, etc... (and gotten yelled at for doing that). I can even accept the prim limits, and live within that model.

I guess what I have the biggest problem with is why could the prim limits have not been implemented without the enormous land use fees as well? The tax system might have been a pain, but it gave everyone a fair shot - you had to work to earn and keep that land. I worked my ass off to support the 4000 meters of land and the prims I had every week - getting referrals, selling things, begging people for money, etc. The land use fees for the same land are far higher than my taxes ever were in L$, and in RL$ they are just plain pathetic once you get out of the $5 and $8 tier because they go up almost exponentially. So I will alter what I have been saying and get to the crux of what I have the most problem with: the high costs that were added for players who want to be more involved.

I admit, I fail to see how the glut of L$ that is out there now, the reduced L$ income for everything (events, referrals, stipends, et al) combined with the outrageously high cost of land use fees in L$ is not designed only to bring more income to LL. And you know what? I could stomach it more if they said it was purely because they need the income, but they keep stating they do not. Why are we giving over all this money then? If LL does not need the extra income, it seems odd and frustrating.

As a side note, maybe I should get into building elaborate attachments. An interesting side effect of 1.2 is that pre 1.2, there was concern about the complexity of attachments because of the rez costs to attach. Now with no cost, it seems a good time to make more elaborate attachments. Food for thought I suppose. I guess it is time I finally made a Sonic the Hedgehog costume

** deleted **

that is the most beautiful sentiment i can think of *sniff* *sniff*.... give me a moment....

wow..


yeah...

the lindens want to cut down on 'supremely useless crap' and tone up 'interesting cool fun things'... and the first step there is to kill off people using 500 prims to render a fridge that doesn't do anything but stand there and look rounder than a 400 prim fridge would

like honestly... my first idea for 1.2 is pullin apart my entire on ground treehouse layout and makin it like an actuall TREE.. like a really big one.. with scriptin, custom particle effects, better, easier access to shopping as an open pavillion around the 30m wide base and physical interaction of fun things... 100 foot tire swing anyone? how about automated/timed scavenger hunts for golden leaves, etc.. jus so much more i could do, without really even usin more prims.. the whole thing would actually use less than some of the more silly 'generic trailer' homes i've seen, and be a whole hell of alot more 'SL' ^.^

As a fellow builder/architect in SL, I wanted to make a couple of comments on some of the other comments in this post.

First, a little background on me. I have not had the pleasure of meeting most of you, as I spend 99% of my time with my head buried in some build. I been refining my building skills to utilize textures as much as possible, but sometimes only a prim will cut it. Some of my more notable works are Cyrus Apollo's house and the short-lived, but soon-to-return Minna Sky Needle. I've also been working on some low prim builds that you can pickup @ the Bazaar in Stillman.

Onto the comments....

That's soooooo not SL!
One thing I'd bring forth is this notion that some builds are more suitable for SL than others. While it may be fair to say that there are some builds we'd all rather not have to look at, it is that owners right to construct such a build. I'm not exactly sure what an "SL Build" is, but I'm gathering that its a fluid definition. It just seems silly to put down ones build because you may not view it as worthy of SL.

1.2 Saves!
With the introduction of 1.2, most builders are taking a good hard look at the way they construct their builds and are making changes to optimize prim usage (if they hadn't been already). The great thing about 1.2 is that you can feel secure in your build. You know how many prims you are allowed, and you know that even if you choose not to use them all, they'll be there for you.. just waiting. So, when you're flying home over that neighbors shiny new 100m high castle with the floating helipad and half dozen vehicles, you can rest assured that they are not using *your* prims.

In short, I like 1.2. It brings forth new and exciting (sometimes aggravating) challenges to the builders. While some of the big spectacular builds have vanished, they will be replaced by new, better builds in the future.