IPs, ISPs, SL and You

I found this a very fruitful topic, it can be an education for us all, so please refrain from the usual pictures of dogs in tinfoil hats, streaking asses, gerbils, and cries of FUCK YOU in discussing this topic. Please re-read Pathfinder's sticky and please restrain yourself.

I first became aware of the differences between the Internet Protocol numbers (IP) (something that looks like this 101.81.82.90) and Internet Service Provider address on the web (something that looks like this: www.verizon.net NOT this: 1020 Main Street, Anytown, USA, 10000.)

It was a few years ago when I signed up for a DSL line, and I sat with the helpdesker trying to get the thing to work. He explained that my machine wasn't reading the IP address or numbers. We looked at those and he explained that a new one might have to be selected. These can be dynamically changing or static. Here's what wikpedia has to say:

Some wiki engines allow individual users to be banned as editors—accomplished by blocking their particular IP address or, if available, their usernames; however, many Internet service providers (ISPs) assign a new IP address for each login, so IP bans often can be circumvented relatively easily, and may prevent legitimate users from accessing features. To deal with this problem, temporary IP bans are sometimes used—and extended to all IP addresses within a particular range—ensuring, thereby, that the vandal cannot edit pages within a given time; the underlying assumption is that this is often a sufficient deterrent. It may, however, still prevent some non-problematic users from the same ISP from using the service for the ban's duration.


The ordinary Joe working with computers believes ISPs and IPs to be interchangeable thingies, or at least related, and that's how he ordinarily talks about them. This can easily be seen by googling and reading tech help pages. Tekkies often triumphantly play "gotcha" on a thing like that, swooping down and grabbing you by the jugular and strangling you if you "mixed up" some tecnical term or "interchanged" them because they mean nothing to you or are the same for all intents and purposes. I won't speculate now why they do this, it may have to do with a certain deep-seated inferiority complex, but the fact is, they take great delight in "setting you straight".

OK, we're all set straight now, hands off the neck please. The fact is, as one tekkie friend told me last night (who can simply impart knowledge without imparting a conk over the head as so often happens on these forums), when a person grabs your IP, he can tell a lot about you. He can unravel back to determine the company that assigns it to you (the ISP) and likely much else.

Is the IP and the ISP related? Of course it is. I think of it as a telephone number that is unique to my own individual telephone, but in itself is useless unless I've got a paid telephone service provider which can connect me up to trunk lines so that I can make a telephone call. Of course that's only a very rough comparison because the assignment of IP numbers isn't quite like that and further more can be dynamic. Still, it's related -- the details aren't so important for this exercise as you'll see.

As we saw from another Wikipedia excerpt, it's rather hard to use the IP or even the ISP numbers or addresses to track a person right to their RL doorway and kill them, say. We're quite aware of that. In fact, we even know that several people or even entire city blocks could be sharing the same IP. That's why it can be a very false lead to claim you've tracked someone's IP and determined that they are merely the alt of another poster. In fact, your crime may merely be that you and that supposed "alt" are only people using the same ISP -- connecting to the Internet at the same place.

That's why when people constantly scream at the Lindens that they should track IPs and catch griefers the Lindens pause (and I've tallked to Lindens at length about this). What if they punished the wrong person by grabbing an IP? People have all kinds of arrangements, i.e. a husband and wife sharing the same game computer, a parent paying a college student's game fees, an SL partner paying the fees of his SL partner, etc. etc. And there's the issue of strangers unrelated to each other just happening to have the same IP as they dial into SL because the use the same ISP. So they can't use too blunt an axe in chopping here. In fact, I"m reminded of the time TSO tried to crack down on the hardcore city of Dragon's Cove, to stop people using multiple accounts and illegal transfers to grab all the islands first. They accidently suspended some accounts of innocent people -- and I believe it's due to precisely this phenom.

So how does this all relate to SL? If I've gotten some technical bit here wrong -- what of it? We all get that IPs are individual numbers, that ISPs are service providers related to those numbers, and whatever their configuration, function, terms, etc. they all add up to a more or less unique identifier.

This is why third-party SL sites, which are the lifeblood of this game, all track IPs. They do that because they can, first and foremost. They do this with or without warning, in some cases, and with privacy policies state, complete, or incomplete. They do this for a variety of formal reasons. One of the formal reasons has to do with secure purchases and registration for forums. Another formal reason is some vague notion of "compliance with the law" -- they can invoke this reason and scare most people off from questioning further, but in fact if you question further you find that there is no law enforcement agency actually requiring this of them or using this feature. After all, a serious law-enforcer chasing a serious RL suspect is going to be able to track him and his Internet activity without resorting to the "help" of a game's forum LOL.

So what do these sites *do* with your IP number? They use it to track you around the Internet. What does it mean to "track you around the Internet"? It doesn't mean tracking you to your home or to your amazon.com purchases, they probably could care less about that. It means tracking you *outside of the game* and tracking *your SL avatar and relating it to your RL identity* and *tracking your alts and multiple accounts in SL*.

These are the chief items of value for any third-party site operator, and they know it, and they make ample use of this capacity, and while they may deny it, or downplay it, it's the chief feature of value to them in grabbing the IP.

Why? Well, first and foremost, they like to say it's about prevention of "griefing". To them, if someone anonymously posts, they want to be able to have something to hold over them. While they may not be able to use a number to come to your door, they can at least have a reasonable chance of having a distinct number like a fingerprint that they can use to block you from posting. They can be especially vigilant about making sure you don't use three alts to post differing opinions, say, one alt agreeing with another alt to churn the forums making it seem like public opinion is in your favor, to vote on polls, etc.

Of course, you may have something urgent to tell the public that you'll be banned or deleted for saying on the SL forums, i.e. proof that someone is engaging in fraud in the game or engaging in malicious slander.

LL doesn't use these methods, because in a much larger website environment, they'd run the risk of making too many false or unfair cuts and blocks, and they've also had a policy of respecting people's desire to make alts, and allowing them to post with those alts if they so desire. It's one of the great attractions of SL for some that they can acquire a new and separate identity, especially in the vicious, vindictive, and hothouse atmosphere of the forums.

Should third-party sites capture an IP and keep it and contrast and compare it to "out" alts? I don't believe they should. I believe that just because you *can* capture an IP or tie it to an ISP or whatever, doesn't mean you *should use it for the purpose of tracking people out of the game, and tracking their alts*. I think all reputable third-party SL-related sites should publish emphatic disclaimers about doing this, and should refrain from doing this if they want respect.

We have only the word of some sites that they don't do this, but given the propensity for vendetta-type actions that some players are capable of, even threating lawsuits and RL justice agencies on you merely because you criticize them, you can't be certain at all, can you?

The IP address is a piece of information that is not put on the personal profile in Second Life. If it is not there, that means it is not fair game for someone to grab and use in any fashion. Grabbing it and using it is therefore a TOS violation.

Furthermore, to grab it to use to out alts, and link up various alts with each other and mains and RL persons, are also TOS violations. SL puts great stake on concealing the identity of alts, as well they should.

I believe that third-party sites do this to have power over other individuals in the game and to have an advantage over them. Knowledge is power. They generally get a free ride when it comes to violating the TOS with impunity precisely because they *are* a third party and SL can't extend its reach to them. (Stratics used to extend their reach in this way and most people found it overreach).

Indeed, SL celebrates third-party sites on its website, allows people to upload and transmit images and information out of the game to third-party sites, and doesn't see any real problem with the misuse of things like IP-grabbing.

What is the Linden's policy on the issue of grabbing customers' RL information, including the IP number and related information obtained through its use? On the one hand, they have strict rules against the publication and use of such information. On the other hand their TOS talks about how they can't address third parties, if I've understood it correctly.

We've heard the interpretation that anything that isn't on the Second Life profile is not to be used or publicized. That means that even if you use the forums to get to an e-mail address and then get to an IP address, you've violated the TOS because that information was not on the Second Life profile per se, you clicked your way through it.

Everybody knows you can't go on the Internet without leaving footprints everywhere. I'm not afraid of the Internet, I don't need a tinfoil hat, and I don't care if my footprints are tracked because most of the entities tracking them are impersonal and not vindictive, and just want to see my buying habits and patterns.

What I do mind is the vindictive fucktards in Second Life, especially those who lynch-mob on forums, grabbing my or anybody else's personal information because *they cannot be trusted to use it fairly*.

Robin. You closed this thread because nothing was being accomplished. now Prokofy Neva has shown his absolute disrespect for that closure, and posted the exact same diatribe which had previously been refuted. Please act swiftly and decisively.

Damage control? Did you spend all night googling trying to find anything to help you save face?. That thread from last night should be bronzed. It shows you for exactly the kind of person you are. You were way over the line. I'm amazed it didn't earn you a vacation. You deserve every bit of backlash you get. That you've just written a 2000 word essay to further show off your complete lack of understanding is not only hilarious, it's unbelievably pathetic.

Moderators, please read the "Insanity" thread and do the right thing. Ban this vindictive liar.

once again, wild speculations and no proof..... show me one instance where any of this has led to this being done to you. Until then its just more ranting and self indulgence. You clould also say that SL is a 3rd party program. Your rants makes no sense, but that happens to be typical.

It is my sincere hope that Linden Labs is soon served with a 'John Doe' action to permit certain individuals the information necessary to plant a legal boot up this kook's ass for criminal defamation and libel.

The initiator of this thread is consistantly the pig found at every mudslop on the forums. When will you learn, LL?

Shock horror! The internet isn't as anonymous as some people think. The safest way of not having your IP address looked at is simply not to have one. Give up the internet until something more secure comes along or take the risk.

This isn’t a new problem; it looks to me more like a vendetta against some 3rd party SL sites.

So noted.

Your computer is broadcasting an IP address! Click here to fix your problem...

Don't forget to defraggle your motherdisc, too.

Damn! I just read that thread....I wish I hadn't posted in this one now

Don't forget the fruit!

This thread is still festering here. I've had threads ganked five minutes within posting, yet he can break the TOS with impugnity, while simultaneously invoking the rules of proper forum behavior.

If these forums are going to be moderated, then moderate them. Not during business hours, nor just for certain people. Moderate at all times with complete impartiality. Otherwise, stop moderating entirely.

Is the motherdisc near the phu-phu valves? Or the ringlay sprockets?

Well Chip... it's actually 1,941 words & 26 paragraphs worth of verbal diarrhea.


Briana Dawson

Why do you post such lengthy messages? Don't you know that most people don't even read what you have to say. Why can't you relay your message with fewer more concise words with less hyperbole?

You are really a mess.

Briana Dawson

Why is everyone hectoring Prok? He is talking about the other Internet.

You know, the one that hid Jimmy Hoffa's body.

Is Sasquatch a roaming hot spot for this Kook-net?

Yes, but be very very careful with the Sasquatch protocol. Chupacabra has horrible packet loss, but at least it configures the IPS number correctly.

LOL! Oh... man, I'll have to share that one with the IT guys at work. 'defraggle'... 'motherdisc'.... lol

I was opffended by your use of the "F word" in your post prok, these forums are PG and I request you or a linden remove the post and/or words from it.

Ow and good luck saving fact, tho I think you failed badly. Btw, I know all the alts you have ever browsed the forums with, Id post them but its a TOS offence

LOL.

and the pie!!!

I reported this thread. Prokofy has gotten on my last nerve. I think I have reported 5 posts in a year and a half, and 2 of them were Prokofy's. I'm just not going to keep sitting by and letting this person get away with being such a jerk and virus to our community.

Thread reported based on this policy:

"If a moderator removes your post, do not repost it elsewhere. Do not repost threads that have been locked or deleted and do not repost content that has been edited or deleted by a moderator. Furthermore, please do not post a "why did my post get removed" post. Send any further discussion regarding post removals to [email]abuse@lindenlab.com[/email]."

IPs, ISPs, IBS and you STOP. It's doing my head in. I threw my computer's cog-defrag across the room out of frustration.

I can't get into to SL