Second Life Forums Archive - Voting system acts against technical suggestions.

Chip Midnight

ate my baby!

Join date: 1 May 2003

Posts: 10,231

04-19-2005 09:26

You're appending things to my argument that I'm not saying Morgaine. My opinions shouldn't be weighted more than yours or anyone else's. It's LL's job to set their priorities and polling the populace to see what people feel are the most important issues or most desired features isn't going to change that.

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Jeffrey Gomez

Cubed™

Join date: 11 Jun 2004

Posts: 3,522

04-19-2005 09:57

Yes, so... moving right back to the actual issue.

From: Khamon Fate

the voting board's primary purpose is to foster the belief that we have input into the development of the software. remember when we used to believe that. well most people, that care, believe it now and will for (how long did we walk the primrose path?) a year or more.

...

sorry, back to the topic, considering it's fundamental purpose, it doesn't matter that the voting system acts against technical suggestions.

The "social engineering" portion of this system is a point I've already discussed with others. I would say that it's half-and-half - voting itself functions as a "safety net" of opinion by making people feel their individual opinions matter, and provides statistical data on the popularity of certain ideas in a nice, neat package.

It's actually a pretty good idea from LL's perspective. And as I mentioned earlier, a good dev actually takes what the community wants with a grain of salt - simply because popularity does not always reflect what is good in the long term.

As for its technical merits, refer back to my previous post.

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Khamon Fate

fategardens.net

Join date: 21 Nov 2003

Posts: 4,177

04-19-2005 10:00

From: Morgaine Dinova

That is certainly one possible interpretation. If one has been around here since the beginning and has witnessed no significant takeup of feature suggestions then the conclusion that this is on purpose is understandable, I think. I'm a relative newcomer.

There is no doubt that the takeup rate is infinitessimally small compared to the rate at which suggestions pour in, even if one counts only the better ones. That proportion is unlikely to change significantly unless LL open-sources its software, and even then it might not --- it purely depends on whether this project captures the FOSS community's interest, whether there are better ones to support, and other issues, as past precedent has shown.

Anyway, that's not happening now (if ever), so we're left then with looking not at the proportion of ideas taken up by LL, but at the absolute number of ideas taken up say per quarter, to gauge progress.

Do you have any rough idea on what such numbers might have been, over time?

I definitely know that the number of requests implemented is not zero, because my most pressing feature suggestion did finally get implemented --- "Leave my Camera Alone!" during Edits, as proposed by many other people too. So there is some movement.

Admittedly, it takes a lot more than that to truly substantiate the premise that "we have input into the development of the software". I would love to see some figures on this, either way.

several features have been implemented as a result of resident suggestion and subsequent resident support. there are no actual numbers to quote because there was no record keeping mechanism. i suppose the voting board will supply relevant data in a year or so if they separate the bug list. off the top of my head:

estate sims
hiding bidder names in auctions
proxy bidding in the auction system
terraforming limits (this was a mistake on our part and should be retracted)
varying terrains in newly added regions
released land going to auction
custom animations
parcel sound streaming
the removal of liason event announcements
the removal of the linden picks in FIND
several LSL llThisAndThats()
the addition of all linden ground textures to the library folder

technical issues are different story. those suggestions have generally been cited as something that can't yet be done for no apparent reason but will be worked toward some decade in the future when other equally cryptic, too difficult for you to understand, infrastructure related work is completed.

the voting board does nothing to change either state of affairs other than providing a feature implementation to suggestion ratio. so my point is that the voting board's existance and management has no effect "against" technical issues. we've never had any voice in the technical issue forum.

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Morgaine Dinova

Active Carbon Unit

Join date: 25 Aug 2004

Posts: 968

04-19-2005 10:00

Khamon, in addition to my question about the number of feature suggestions taken up over time, I would be interested to know also where you think things might go from here.

If a substantial number of content developers or (potential) infrastructure developers reach the same conclusion as yourself, is there something more proactive you/they/we could be doing than just waiting for a better system to come along?

Although I know extremely little about OSMP, I have no doubt that Azelda and the gang would love to have some new content developed by excellent crafters. And there are many open-source games out there too which could undoubtedly benefit from artistic content or input, not to mention technical.

On the infrastructure front, disenchanted developers have even more places that would welcome them with open arms. Existing 3D projects like OSMP and CrystalSpace are obvious candidates, and OpenCroquet was mentioned here recently.

Plus, entire new endeavours could be started, even some directly related to SL --- for example the creation of an open-source SL client from scratch.

Lots of possibilities. How do you think it might all go?

Edit: thanks Khamon, your reply to the first question overlapped with this posting.

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-- Mouselook camera continuity, basic UI camera improvements

Khamon Fate

fategardens.net

Join date: 21 Nov 2003

Posts: 4,177

04-20-2005 06:59

You've made me think out of the grid Morgaine. Thank You Thank You Thank You. I posted a loosely formed answer during my ramblings here.

This is the type of project I'll begin to seek with the hope of becoming a contributing supporter. Streaming is sticking in the front of my brain. It must be the major block.

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Morgaine Dinova

Active Carbon Unit

Join date: 25 Aug 2004

Posts: 968

04-21-2005 03:51

Hehe, I added my twopence there too.

Most of that "Stronger SL Community" thread seems to consist of quotations from a wannabe demagog who seeks to put everyone under his particular worldview under force of law. Quite funny actually.

Taunting the wildlife isn't a particularly productive thing to do though, so I think I'll leave it at that.

_____________________

-- General Mousebutton API, proposal for interactive gaming
-- Mouselook camera continuity, basic UI camera improvements

Voting system acts against technical suggestions.
Chip Midnight ate my baby! Join date: 1 May 2003 Posts: 10,231	04-19-2005 09:26 You're appending things to my argument that I'm not saying Morgaine. My opinions shouldn't be weighted more than yours or anyone else's. It's LL's job to set their priorities and polling the populace to see what people feel are the most important issues or most desired features isn't going to change that. _____________________ My other hobby: www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight
Jeffrey Gomez Cubed™ Join date: 11 Jun 2004 Posts: 3,522	04-19-2005 09:57 Yes, so... moving right back to the actual issue. From: Khamon Fate the voting board's primary purpose is to foster the belief that we have input into the development of the software. remember when we used to believe that. well most people, that care, believe it now and will for (how long did we walk the primrose path?) a year or more. ... sorry, back to the topic, considering it's fundamental purpose, it doesn't matter that the voting system acts against technical suggestions. The "social engineering" portion of this system is a point I've already discussed with others. I would say that it's half-and-half - voting itself functions as a "safety net" of opinion by making people feel their individual opinions matter, and provides statistical data on the popularity of certain ideas in a nice, neat package. It's actually a pretty good idea from LL's perspective. And as I mentioned earlier, a good dev actually takes what the community wants with a grain of salt - simply because popularity does not always reflect what is good in the long term. As for its technical merits, refer back to my previous post. _____________________ ---
Khamon Fate fategardens.net Join date: 21 Nov 2003 Posts: 4,177	04-19-2005 10:00 From: Morgaine Dinova That is certainly one possible interpretation. If one has been around here since the beginning and has witnessed no significant takeup of feature suggestions then the conclusion that this is on purpose is understandable, I think. I'm a relative newcomer. There is no doubt that the takeup rate is infinitessimally small compared to the rate at which suggestions pour in, even if one counts only the better ones. That proportion is unlikely to change significantly unless LL open-sources its software, and even then it might not --- it purely depends on whether this project captures the FOSS community's interest, whether there are better ones to support, and other issues, as past precedent has shown. Anyway, that's not happening now (if ever), so we're left then with looking not at the proportion of ideas taken up by LL, but at the absolute number of ideas taken up say per quarter, to gauge progress. Do you have any rough idea on what such numbers might have been, over time? I definitely know that the number of requests implemented is not zero, because my most pressing feature suggestion did finally get implemented --- "Leave my Camera Alone!" during Edits, as proposed by many other people too. So there is some movement. Admittedly, it takes a lot more than that to truly substantiate the premise that "we have input into the development of the software". I would love to see some figures on this, either way. several features have been implemented as a result of resident suggestion and subsequent resident support. there are no actual numbers to quote because there was no record keeping mechanism. i suppose the voting board will supply relevant data in a year or so if they separate the bug list. off the top of my head: estate sims hiding bidder names in auctions proxy bidding in the auction system terraforming limits (this was a mistake on our part and should be retracted) varying terrains in newly added regions released land going to auction custom animations parcel sound streaming the removal of liason event announcements the removal of the linden picks in FIND several LSL llThisAndThats() the addition of all linden ground textures to the library folder technical issues are different story. those suggestions have generally been cited as something that can't yet be done for no apparent reason but will be worked toward some decade in the future when other equally cryptic, too difficult for you to understand, infrastructure related work is completed. the voting board does nothing to change either state of affairs other than providing a feature implementation to suggestion ratio. so my point is that the voting board's existance and management has no effect "against" technical issues. we've never had any voice in the technical issue forum. _____________________ Visit the Fate Gardens Website @ fategardens.net
Morgaine Dinova Active Carbon Unit Join date: 25 Aug 2004 Posts: 968	04-19-2005 10:00 Khamon, in addition to my question about the number of feature suggestions taken up over time, I would be interested to know also where you think things might go from here. If a substantial number of content developers or (potential) infrastructure developers reach the same conclusion as yourself, is there something more proactive you/they/we could be doing than just waiting for a better system to come along? Although I know extremely little about OSMP, I have no doubt that Azelda and the gang would love to have some new content developed by excellent crafters. And there are many open-source games out there too which could undoubtedly benefit from artistic content or input, not to mention technical. On the infrastructure front, disenchanted developers have even more places that would welcome them with open arms. Existing 3D projects like OSMP and CrystalSpace are obvious candidates, and OpenCroquet was mentioned here recently. Plus, entire new endeavours could be started, even some directly related to SL --- for example the creation of an open-source SL client from scratch. Lots of possibilities. How do you think it might all go? Edit: thanks Khamon, your reply to the first question overlapped with this posting. _____________________ -- General Mousebutton API, proposal for interactive gaming -- Mouselook camera continuity, basic UI camera improvements
Khamon Fate fategardens.net Join date: 21 Nov 2003 Posts: 4,177	04-20-2005 06:59 You've made me think out of the grid Morgaine. Thank You Thank You Thank You. I posted a loosely formed answer during my ramblings here. This is the type of project I'll begin to seek with the hope of becoming a contributing supporter. Streaming is sticking in the front of my brain. It must be the major block. _____________________ Visit the Fate Gardens Website @ fategardens.net
Morgaine Dinova Active Carbon Unit Join date: 25 Aug 2004 Posts: 968	04-21-2005 03:51 Hehe, I added my twopence there too. Most of that "Stronger SL Community" thread seems to consist of quotations from a wannabe demagog who seeks to put everyone under his particular worldview under force of law. Quite funny actually. Taunting the wildlife isn't a particularly productive thing to do though, so I think I'll leave it at that. _____________________ -- General Mousebutton API, proposal for interactive gaming -- Mouselook camera continuity, basic UI camera improvements

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Voting system acts against technical suggestions.