Ratings? Why do you care?

Ok suffice it to say that there are some who appear to be OBSESSED with their ratings.
Before we start a flame war over this, I would like to point out that it appears we ALL agree the ratings "system" is at best significantly flawed and at worst completely fubar.
For those of you not in the know.. fubar is Fucked Up Beyond All Recognition.

I studied the forums last night with regard to the ratings system and factored in my own in world experiences and this is what I have found:

There are people who are "griefing" by automatically neg rating in 3 categories ANYONE they come in contact with. It only costs them 3 bucks a pop to do so.. so why not?

Which brings me to
point 1: Cost
Ratings should cost SIGNIFICANTLY more than a buck a point. I would venture that if it cost 100L a point to do so, people would be mindful of an auto 3 point rate in the plus or minus and would be seriously more tolorent if it cost them 100L to neg rate. I believe that if it cost 100L to rate you would have to REALLY like someones build or REALLY despise someones behavior to rate them at all. I also believe this would get a handle on the "I dont like your attitude so I am neg rating you... and oh yeah Appearance and Build skill get a neg too BIYOTCH!" thought process currently in play.

point 2: Farming
I got a neat message yesterday: Player X has rated you positively (Nice Av!)
I thought...Thanks! A few moments later I got an IM, "Hey I rated you positively!"
I replied, "Yes I saw that.. thankyou! " He replied, "So no return rate?"
I explained to him what the rating system was designed for and in the end he said he understood but ended with, "So no return rate?"

point 3: Retaliation Rate
Someone, being an asshole or justified rates you negatively, you in turn rate them negatively for no other reason than they neg rated you. There are COUNTLESS scenarios of people wanting to FIND someone or something by Member X so they can return rate someone. Bogus system, Bogus mindset, Bogus reasoning.

I have come to the conclusion that I want to just OPT OUT of the ratings system. Now I am not asking for a feature to be implemented where I am allowed to check a box or something that would remove me from the ratings system... as nice as that would be for a stop gap measure until a total overhaul of the system is comlpeted, but I will however note my profile that I have opted out of the ratings system and will never again rate anyone for anything good or bad until changes are made to the ratings system currently in use.

I know that ASKING you or anyone else to join me in this is probably a futile endeavor.
HOWEVER... If you have any interest in taking a stand against the current ratings system in place I will have a group you can join.
If you are old enough to remember the tax revolt, if you are old enough to remember the We want our own Sim pleas, you know that we CAN effectively change things in SL.
If enough people band together, the Lindens WILL listen.
By continuing to participate in the current rating system you are telling the Lindens on some level that you WANT their stipend based on the rating system NO MATTER HOW FLAWED.
This is tantamount to government funded ratings racketeering!

STOP COLLECTING WELFARE CHECKS!

setup a group...and consider me joined...x

I addressed part of this in another post, however; the system currently gives L$ as bonuses. I understand your point. I don't agree however with making rating people more expensive than income unless it is not based on weekly bonuses. If Lindens figure out a better way to give allowances to account holders that would be ok. Maybe a longevity bonus, the longer you have an account with Seconlife, the more bonus you get over time; however, this could also be an issue to those that think just normal socializers shouldn't be rewarded with anything.

Secondlife is not like Everquest or normal MMORPG's as far as making money. To make money other than weekly stipends/bonuses you have to make real life monetary investment and a learning process of Software/Programming Language. I understand addressing the problem, however; don't overlook a solution in the process.

The problem with making Rates expensive is that there will always be people earing enough money as to underestimate it's value. If I earn 10,000L's a week, and I have bought all the furnishing and clothing and vehicles I need for now.. I'm even in a better position to neg rate someone - who I know won't probably be able to neg rate me back.

People are so obsessed with ratings because it is tied to their income. I've read that in [edited country name to avoid hurting anyone from there], some families in poverty lines kill newborns if they're girls because the goverment discourages having girls by not providing any monetary aids to the family that has one. The goverment even fines the family for having more than 1 child!

Doc, well thought out and articulated post. Kudo's and no Im not rating you back...LOL

Anyway I do tend to agree with several points you brought up and yes this unfortunately has been talked to death. Several have offered many a solution to this to "Untie" the money from the ratings system as in RL we dont get money cause we got our asses kissed.

So again Well put and thank you for another attempt at trying to enlighten people but I fear there are a great many that just wont listen.

Cheers...


Shadow

Shadow I fear its the greater percentage of the population.
But even in the end... if I dont get ANYONE else on board with the idea, I will have done what I believe is right. ANd that is to refuse to participate in the scam any longer.

Doc, is your Glass half empty or half full?

Talk to newbies at the WA. Chances are you'll find at least one there that will get angry because you didn't triple-pos him back (to make money, of course). Attempts to explain why the ratings system is there in the first place fall on deaf ears or, worse yet, earn you a few negative ratings.

The only ratings that have any basis in reputation are negative ratings, which is bad because instead of rewarding good behavior, it permanently punishes slightly bad behavior. The result: xenophobic residents afraid to do anything for fear of having a higher tarnished reputation.

It's broken. It needs fixing. It won't be until winter 2005 at the earliest.

LF

Blake,

You always ask the really hard hitting questions

How about making the neg rate process similar to the Abuse report? If you're going to neg rate someone, you have to give a reason. The problem with this is then we'd need someone (Linden) to moderate all the neg rates.

Ok so maybe that's not a good idea.

The only reason I'm not interested in changing the rating system is because -- as someone said before -- it has a lot to do with the weekly stipend.

A HELL of a lot of people depend on that stipend.

Of course LL could just give 'em a standard stipend that's the same every week, but I don't like that welfare jab; you're basically saying that people HAVE to and SHOULD create things and sell them/host events/attend those stupid club money-slinging events. What if they don't want to? What happened to making SL whatever you want it to be?

Why would they need the money if they just wanted to do their own thing? They could buy money off the GOM if they're hard pressed for cash, or they could just fly around and pick up the tons of free stuff flying about.

Money is good for two things in SL: Land, and some shopping. Nothing in SL has any permanent, intrinsic value except for land, and if you don't want to own that, you don't need gobs of cash.

People go to the moneyball deathpits already with their massively inflated stipend; I don't think it would change much if the ratings system was decoupled with money.

LF

Good point -- but shopping actually costs a lot. I suppose you COULD go to GOM, but it's less convenient. I honestly do think that people would play SL less if it meant that they had to actually buy cash with their RL cash, especially if they're used to this way. I mean, that's what everyone was complaining about There, wasn't it?

It makes SL less fantasy and a little more real, that's all -- if the only way to make cash (if you didn't want to sell stuff, host stuff, win stuff) was to pay for it with your real-life dollars.

It would stand to reason that if we examine WHY a stipend is even needed in the first place, we could perhaps get to the bottom of how to offer a solution to the ratings issue at hand.
I am trying to think of categories that people fit into when it comes to the need for Stipend money. Please help if I miss something.

1. I dont make anything to sell
2. I dont believe in the concept of selling
3. The stuff I make doesnt sell
4. I have no interest in creating things to sell
5. I have no interest in trying the land baron route
6. I need so little money that the stipend covers my needs anyway
7. I have no interest in hosting events for money
8. I have no interest in a Second Life "job"
9. I dont have enough free time to spend in world to generate cash other than stipend.

What have I missed?

10. I don't want to make anything or create anything, but I like to have av sex and I like to own my own "sex balls" (more money) and I also like to shop (more money).

(Not speaking from a personal viewpoint but there are people like that)

I just don't think that you should FORCE anyone into making something/selling something/hosting something etc. Some people just don't want to put in the effort.

And even if you (not you, Doctor) don't agree with that and don't really want anything to do with these consumer people, who are we to tell them that they can't play SL that way?

For one thing, I certainly don't have an issue to deal with concerning Copyrights of my AV. It took me about 8 hours alone or more just to design him.

So.. basicaly #10 is for those that dont want to do anything to warrant receiving money, but they want money to spend on stuff in world?



I am not advocating forcing anyone INTO or OUT of anything.
What I am trying to get to the bottom of is WHY people would be so dependant on Welfare Checks from the Lindens.



Again, not saying anyone has to or cant do anything anyway they choose.
Searching for healthy debate and answers.

Answer: Basically Doctor, this is Secondlife; some do not want to turn it into Firstlife.

Lo, you'll want to separate the ratings issue from the stipend issue.

They are tied right now, but while many people write about changing/removing rating system, most that i've seen aren't proposing getting rid of the stipend. (although there are a million posts on this issue and one can't read em all)

The stipend can only be considered "welfare" when given to the "basic account" players who don't pay a monthly fee, but this stipend is in effect an investment by LL as they try to scale game participation to critical mass. For those paying a monthly fee, it is hard to see it as welfare, since the stipend can be considered a partial return of the RL$ fee paid.

LL may change rating system, but I would not expect the stipend system to disappear anytime soon. Such a move would hurt the creators/sellers by limiting the resources of the "consumer class" and probably hurt the early growth rate of SL.

As has been discussed prev, LL pays attention to the money supply to try to keep inflation in check.

I care about ratings because I base my RL self-concept on what some people that I'll never meet in RL or SL declare whether I'm positive, negative, or neutral.

In fact I was thinking of starting an "I'm leaving" thread just because the ratings weren't quite gratifying enough.

See me in game, I will extend the Gratuity.

In a word -- yes.

I know you're not trying to force anyone into doing anything, and even that Second Life was created for those who enjoy creating -- but it's turned into something else, also, and as a result of all the great clothes and clubs and sex balls we've made -- there's just a bunch of people who like to consume.

LL needs to consider these people as well. They want to expand, right? Is EVERYONE going to create stuff? No. You need consumers.

I suppose the best way would be to separate the money and the stipend. (Sorry) I'm just coming around to that solution. I think that that's the only reason why the rating system is flawed -- because of the money. Then again, without the added bonus of money, the rating system itself would be useless because no one would use it. It would just hurt if someone negatively rated you, that's all.

OH..of course I need to see your body first.

Before you read myt post keep in mind there wil lbe grammer errors, No im not a minor, no im not a moron, i jsut type extremly fast.

I Agree with Forseti Svarog's post for one reason, I have a basic account. We make 50 linden a week, i make aproximatley 500 linden on a good week thanks to the rating system. A good week means that i go to a few parties and yes "Rate Mine" i rate the people there and soem rate me back, no i dont ask for ratings, I have only triple negative rated soemone once. In reality i have only negativly rate one person. This person in particular was using severe push wepaons and mass rezing in the island sandbox. But backt othe point, if you remove the rate system from the stipend then i wil lnot be able to do any purchasing, i wont be able top aford a location at a store, nore wiell i be able to afford my current fees to other shop owners. Premium accounts get 500 a week, people who sell lots get at least double that in sales, its not fair quite frankly to tell me to go onto GOM because if i could afford a premium account i nthe first place then yes i would have one. Unless your going to A. increase a basic accounts stipend to a premium accounts or B. create a new system that can be used to increase stipend, then please dont complaina bout it. you may not like the fact that its easy to abuse. I don't either, all im saying is look at all sides of the issue because on one side of this shiny dodecahedron we call second life there are people who need the rating sytem to keep the game fun.

Neg rating..
If that is taken away, the Liaisons are going to have a wholelotta more work. There should be only one neg rate allowed, it should definitely cost 50 or so Lindens. Some feel they should decline, well ok, but if I neg rate someone, I want to be notified that it has declined or worn off, with the option to re-neg rate. Maybe that person did something horrific, or maybe I have searched my soul and have forgiven them and will let the neg rate fade away...

A neg rate should have a bigger impact on your bonus, and it should be told to you up front, along with the neg raters name, and a required reason.

Jane Doe, Joe Schmoe has just rated you neg, reason: "you shot me 12 times with your push gun after I asked you stop". Your bonus will be decrease by 20Lindens until "expiration time of neg rate". In the meantime you have the option of speaking to Joe Schmoe to work things civilly between both parties and reverse his neg rate of you.

At which point, if the person who gave the neg chooses to uneg, the person who received the neg rate, should be charged, some portion or all of the orginal charge, and then that money is refunded to the person who negged.


As far as pos rates go, well thats another post.
Maybe ratings should be totally separated from income, and that too, is yet another post.

fen-