All a guy wants is a little debate and discussion.

And it turns into this.

I guess it's a sign of how important SecondLife is to everyone.

But that would make sense, you spend a lot of hours building and creating with your heart and soul .. you pour it all into SL.

And when someone comes along and treats it like a plaything for discourse, it can be pretty upsetting.

I kinda understimated that, really, my only intention was to hopefully motivate everyone into seeing all the different possibilities so that I'd have someone to discuss them with.

But, I guess I'll just have to be patient and find those people in a different way.

Maybe I'll hold some events or something.

Apologies all around.. it was only desire to get everyone to think, it wasn't to make you all (well, some) undeniably unhappy.

So, I'll take any agreeing with Prok in world and whoever else wants to think about these issues.

Clearly the public forums are not the place.

Blaze:

I for one am sorry you truly feel this way.

As I stated in a different thread, I think it might be beneficial to examine HOW you say something as opposed to WHAT you are saying.

If, for example, I really truly believe that Proposition 123 should be passed, it doesn't really help my cause for me to call everyone that is against Proposition 123 freedom-haters, or communists, or liberals, or whackjob fundamentalists.

What does help my cause is a clear, well-thought-out discussion on the benefits and weaknesses of Proposition 123 - and to also listen and respond to others' ideas on Prop 123 with respect.

Respect does not mean kowtowing to other's beliefs. Respect means listening, and then debating upon the true and valid points or flaws in reasoning and/or evidence. You can disagree violently with someone and still debate with respect.

I sincerely hope that you understand where I am coming from on this, as I believe differing opinions are the lifeblood of any free community. However, the manner in which you conduct yourself is not inextricably linked to your opinions - you can change one without having it affect the other.

Azazel, I agree with everything you just said.

Now, how about reading through my posts and you'll find I do exactly everything you suggest, and far more than people do for me.

The problem is not how I say it, but what I'm saying.

People do not want to hear bad things about the Techi Wiki no matter how I deliver it.

no, actually it's largely how you're saying it.

these things have been said before.

Well, if you have a specific quote I'd be interested

What bothers people Blaze is that you never listen. People point out to you time and time again what they object to and you just ignore it. When you can't take the heat from the fires you start you flit off and start another thread about it. That is not the behavior of someone who truly wants constructive debate.

I listen all the time. Not sure what you mean.

You make a lot of great points Chip, and I take them into account.

Admittedly when people start throwing the personal insults around, I glaze over and stop listening. You kinda have to.

first point I would make is the deragatory label "Techi Wiki" for anyone who disagrees

Blaze:

If I could, I would like to point out two instances in your post that illustrate to a certain extent what I speak of.



With this sentence, your choice of words convey irritation because you believe I don't read your posts, and you imply as such. Implication generally makes one look much more snide than they prehaps intended. You could have said something like "I believe I already conduct myself in this manner" and the effect would have been much different, while essentially stating the same thing.

In addition, the words "...and far more than people do for me" is also a backhanded attack on other posters while attempting to gain sympathy for yourself. Whether or not other people do this is a moot point; I fully admit my own culpability in this matter and I have seen other posts today from people that also admit they are guilty to a certain extent - we all are, we're only human. However, you are currently the one posting to numerous threads that you feel your viewpoint is being silenced by a majority of people - my purpose in responding to this thread is to hopefully demonstrate how your choice of words can be just as influential in how others react to you as the validity of your opinion.




Immediately, when you use the term "techi wiki", you are grouping together a section of forum posters who hold a certain belief about a topic, and placing a label on them which could easily be considered derogatory given its use. We see this in American politics to a great extent lately. If one replaces "techi wiki" with "liberal", "republican", etc, you can more easily see how labeling people because of one standpoint on an issue immediately puts people on the defensive. Once you place your debating opponents on the defensive, you lose almost any chance of getting the real point of your message across.

One aspect of respectful debate is conveying the points of your arguement honestly and validly, while trying diligently to remove emotional language and implications of a false us-against-them mentality.

Fair enough, Azazel, I think you're really on to something there.

So, basically what you're saying, if someone posts a lot and like me they should be shunned by the entire community? Regardless of their opinions?

Or do the opinions still matter?

I'm convinced Blaze doesn't have the same intentions Prok does when he posts. There isn't the nastiness, disdain and hatred. Just my 2 cents.

Blaze, did you actually read that post? Ignoring respectful and valid points and responding with hyperbole that twists the message in an accusatory way is precisely why your opinions aren't given serious attention. When you say "So, basically what you're saying, if someone posts a lot and like me they should be shunned by the entire community? Regardless of their opinions?" you're engaging in precisely the kind of behavior that Azazel is very patiently and respectfully trying to convey to you. That is not at all what's being said to you. The opinions do matter, but they're lost in a disrespectful tone.

Not at all, blaze, and I'm afraid I don't see how you came up with that conclusion, or else I am misinterpreting what you are trying to say.

To be honest, I would like to ask you to clarify your statement before I respond, as I'm not sure what you mean by "if someone posts a lot and like me they should be shunned by the entire community" - prehaps I'm not reading it correctly. Could you re-word for me please?

My only intent is to attempt to show you how your choice of words can be interpreted by those who read your posts, and how that interpretation can work against your goal of getting others to see and agree with your points.

Chip, I did read the post.

Azazel said I post in a mean, snarky way and this is why I'm being shunned, not because of my opinions.

Right Azazel?

It's not what I'm saying, it's how I'm saying it.

Chip, is this not what you understood that I was trying to say? What did you think I was trying to say?

I just want it to be very clear: people in these forums should be shunned when they say things in a mean, snarky way.

Fair enough, Azazel.

I thought you were attempting to explain why it is that they (ardith, cienna, and crew) want to shun my posts.

I guess you're just trying to explain what you think is wrong and it has nothing to do with what you believe it is that they're thinking.

Yes, I do agree I could be more polite, absolutely. And I think I make attempts to be pretty polite, but sometimes I fall short.

That being said, I think I rate somewhere around in the top 40% percentile in terms of politeness around here.

And yet, still, I'm being shunned.

Why is that?

Nothing wrong with posting.

Thinking out loud and advocating conspiracy theories are often not met with congenial replies. This "in your face" posting has got to stop. You guys have been daily hijacking and derailing the purposefulness of these threads. In short, reducing it to a dog's breakfast.

Give some otherwise decent people some room to add commentary. These forums are not about you, they are about us.

Blaze, you may have noticed since I'm responding to you that I have not shunned you or put you on ignore. You're actually not very snarky generally speaking, but you show a great deal of disrespect to people who engage in dialogue with you by not demonstrating that you understand what they're trying to say. You twist it to suit your purposes, as you've just done again. If someone tells you that all they're saying is that how you word something can negatively impact people's willingness to consider your point, and then you rephrase it as something they didn't actually say, you're demostrating exactly that behavior. Azazel did NOT say "you post in a mean, snarky way and this is why I'm being shunned, not because of my opinions" as you can clearly see by looking at the post. It does not contain the words mean, snarky, or shunned now does it?

Weedy, I think you'll find that I didn't post that much in any of the last debates. They pretty much carried themselves.

I didn't tell Jeffrey to start a thread, I didn't tell whoever else to start a thread.

Clearly the issues struck a nerve. The idea struck a nerve. It had nothing to do with me.

Yes, I agree .. I do miss the point of many posts. Mostly because they are laden with personal attacks so I tend to glaze over them, but sometimes because I simply miss things.

I had thought that Azazel was trying to explain why other people might not like my threads, such as the group that is 'shunning' me.

But Azazel is just explaining from his/her own perspective.

Fair enough.

And I absolutely agree, I could stand to be more indirect and more polite.

This doesn't explain, of course, why it is that people are reacting en masse, but it is a good point.

Thanks for your clarification, blaze, and I believe you have the jist of what I'm trying to say, even if your rewording leaves something to be desired in terms of finesse.

I have noticed a number of people in other threads stating they aren't going to place you on ignore, and they essentially don't think you're malicious or trolling. I don't think you're actively trying to aggrevate people, and I don't believe you're anything less than a passionate person with a keen interest in the free exchange of ideas.

However, how skilled you are at communicating with the written word is by far the most important tool you have at your disposal when debating on forums. My brother has a learning disability and I have seen him cry in frustration when he couldn't articulate what he truly means - I have seen how maddening it can be to not be able to get your point across, to not effectively communicate with another person.

Again, my only goal in this thread is to hopefully show how the correct choice of words in a debate situation can make your message more palatable, and your arguements more effective and persuasive to others.



EDIT upon preview: blaze, for what its worth, I don't think many are putting you on this "shunning" list, the appropriateness of which I am abstaining from comment on. If I felt that you were merely looking to fan the flames of any given arguement, I doubt we would be taking the time to try and convince you that its not your opinions, but how you present your arguements defending your opinions, that some could reasonably find issue with.

Azazel, we could use a million more people like you.

Blaze, for what it's worth, I think you're a good guy and I don't think you have bad intentions. I really have no intention of putting you on ignore or shunning you. I'm just simply boggled by why in the past couple of weeks you've aligned yourself with the ideas of the most blatantly irrational person on the forums. If a topic has been hammered for weeks and all it produces is contentious unproductive and vitriolic debate and you go out of your way to make threads to perpetuate it, it makes people question your motives, especially since once you're spread the fire to yet another thread you generally don't contribute much of anything to the debate. If you don't want to take the time to consider people's opinions and routinely dismiss them without reading them or understanding them fully are you contributing to useful dialogue or perpetuating unpleasantness? Why even start threads to solicite those opinions in the first place? I ask you to think about that seriously.

and the winner for most annoying forum poster is................

Why thank you blaze - that's a very nice thing for you to say.


In turn, I think any number of people could learn from your example that you have set in this thread - a willingness to listen, attempt to understand and clarify, and respond intellegently to criticism, even to the extent that you admit your shortcomings. Its a rare person indeed that can do that, even when they feel as if they are being ganged up upon. I give you an immense amount of credit.

Don't go overboard, Az. People usually give in and agree to be reasonable when they're backed into a corner... only to come out and resume the same behavior as what got them into the mess as soon as the pressure is off.

Let him stay like this longer than a few hours and I'll be impressed.

Let him stay like this longer than a few days and I'll be floored.

Let him stay like this longer than a few months and I'll be astonished.

We'll see.