Seperation of School and State. What do you think?

I proclaim publicly that I favor ending government involvement in education." Quoted by someone in an article.

Children need Honest Education
Separating School from State
Is the Only Way to Get There
Fifty years ago, Americans were thunderstruck by Rudolph Flesch's best seller, "Why Johnny Can't Read." Today we have evidence that Johnny not only can't read, but he doesn't even want to. Worse, Johnny can't behave himself. What happened?

The "Three R's"
Many parents believe that the core of "education" is primarily learning the Three R's: Readin', Writin', and 'Rithmatic.
With the media attention to test scores of schools, districts, and states—and politicians sensing that "education is a hot issue"—school leaders have developed a mania for looking good on tests.

Odd as it may seem, their low-score phobia pushes them to turning children into test-taking robots. Many a teacher will tell you that we are drifting ever further from genuine education.

"Education" is more than skills training
When our schools help an intelligent person become the smartest accountant in the world, but somehow undermine his moral formation, they turn out an embezzler you can't catch.
Traditional educators, on the other hand, held "wisdom"—not just skills—as the goal of an educated person. But for over a century, American school leaders have more and more focused on "career skills" and for over a half-century, on "life adjustment" or "social skills" as the ultimate goal for their students.

This is dishonest. Schools implicitly tell students a lie: Mere professional and social success can bring satisfaction. How many parents believe that a person can find happiness by selling a cancer therapy he knew was a fraud?

We in the Alliance for Separation of School & State believe that the restoration of "Honest Education" can help every Johnny and Jill on their path to wisdom.

Indeed, even the earliest stages of wisdom—for example, diligence—will help them apply themselves to learning the many important skills of life, including Readin', Writin', and 'Rithmatic.

Some of the Big Questions of Life


Why am I here? Is there any purpose to my life?
Why is there so much evil in the world? How can I know what is good and what is evil?
Why is there so much suffering in the world? How should I handle suffering of others? How should I handle my own?
Is there a Supreme Being? Does he care about us?
What is truth? Are there any permanent truths?


Honest Education promotes discussion among teachers and students of "The Big Questions of Life." It can also be called real, authentic, or genuine education.

When one grasps the underlying structure of school-by-government (called "public schools" in U.S.), it becomes easier to solve the riddle of why all school reforms have failed for the entire 160-year existence of state schooling in America.

Separation of school and state applies to schooling the approach Americans have used for churching: Government doesn't run, compel, or finance Sunday School. We believe the same approach should be applied to Monday school, Tuesday school, Wednesday school, etc., etc.

Dishonest Education
Dishonest education deceives teachers, students, and parents by pretending that a person should "compartmentalize" his life. That means the Big Questions of Life can be discussed home and church but not brought into school, the workplace, or the political process.
Compartmentalizing causes a breakdown in the integrity of all who try it. We saw this breakdown at Enron, Arthur Anderson, WorldCom, etc. People who were in the church choir on Sunday were shredding audit reports on Monday. They were compartmentalizing their lives. Prominent People Who are Signatories of the Proclamation


Recent Signers

Joseph Farah
Writer, Author, Editor and CEO of WorldNetDaily
John K. Rosemond
Psycologist, Author, Syndicated columnist and Speaker on parenting
Mark Shea
Catholic Apologist, Author, Speaker, and blogger
Penn & Teller
Magicians, Comedians and Variety Show Hosts
Dinesh D'Souza
Author, What's So Great About America, The Virtue of Prosperity, The End of Racism and Illiberal Education
Larry Elder
Talk Show Host, Syndicated Columnist and Author, The Ten Things You Can't Say In America
"Public" and Private School Educators

John Taylor Gatto
1991 New York State Teacher of the Year
William Kirk Kilpatrick
Author, Why Johnny Can't Tell Right from Wrong
[more]
Home School Leaders

John Mark Reynolds
Biola University
Art Robinson
Publisher, Access to Energy
Raymond Stalker
Executive Director, Illinois Christian Home Educator
[more]
Policy Leaders

Ron Paul
US Congressman, Texas
Fred Smith
President, Competitive Enterprises Institute
Ed Crane
President, Cato Institute
[more]
Business, Media, and Foundation Leaders

Barry Conner
Homebuilder, Gainesville, Georgia
Douglas Dewey
Children's Scholarship Fund
Tom Monaghan
Founder of Domino's Pizza
[more]
Talk Show Hosts

Chuck Baker
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Gary Nolan
Rocky River, Ohio
Lowell Ponte
Carlsbad, California
[more]
Religious Leaders

D James Kennedy
Coral Ridge Ministries
Fr Hugh Barbour O Praem
St. Michael's Abbey
Rabbi Mayer Schiller
Teacher, Author
Mark Skousen
Foundation for Economic Education
Hamza Yusuf Hanson
Islamic Scholar
[more]


School-by-government can never be Honest Education
A teacher who has children of different beliefs in her classroom can't honestly share her own beliefs on the Big Questions because that would seriously undermine some of the parents. Such honesty by a teacher would result in intolerable turmoil among parents and administrators, costly lawsuits, and if she persists, very likely the loss of her job.
Rather than teaching the children in common, some countries have government support for religious schools. Over the years, constant meddling by political forces has gradually drained religion from the subsidized schools so that they have become state school look-alikes.

I see you found the link I posted.

Out of courtesy to the signers, you may want to remove their name from your thread. While they agreed to have their name shown on the main website, not sure they would love to have that same list all over the place. A risk they take yes, but, just my opinion.

Oh, and the link to the website for those interested:

Alliance for the Separation of School & State
http://honested.com/


PS: I voted yes on this poll, and my RL name is buried in that site somewhere as well.

Great Topic Pendari. This should be interesting.

Sadly in America, the teacher's unions and the local education officals have botched the education system for our youth. Political correctness has lead to a cult of mediocrity where instead of trying to challenge children to excel, we instead focus on the lower performing students and bring the bar lower and lower each year to accomodate their learning speeds. Take a moment and poll a typical high-schooler today about any topic, you will be shocked. Until education becomes an industry dedicated to the youth and the future, instead of a political tool for elected officials or a money maker/ power creator for the unions, I don't think we will see any change in the near future...

"Why am I here? Is there any purpose to my life?
Why is there so much evil in the world? How can I know what is good and what is evil?
Why is there so much suffering in the world? How should I handle suffering of others? How should I handle my own?
Is there a Supreme Being? Does he care about us?
What is truth? Are there any permanent truths?"

WTF? Who is going to answer these questions for me? A teacher? My fellow students? Are they going to lead me on the path to salvation? Do they know why I am here? What my purpose in life is? Supreme being? Okay answer that one .. only the believers and people with faith are going to say yes. Is this church or is this school?

This is just a way to try to bypass the seperation of CHURCH and state and allow these types of teachings in the school system. By taking out the regulations of the state they allow all types of religious practices into the school. It is pretty obvious what is being pushed here.

There is a big difference bettween regulation and outright management. The state may control fair trade in commerce, but if it was tasked to run a business like it runs the education system the product would be laughable and the whole company would fail without constant funnelling of tax funds to keep it afloat. I agree that church and school may not mix well, but that was not the question or the implication...The governmant is failing, period. Take a European student and an American student and compare...religious intervention in schools has nothing to do with an inability to compose a coherent paragraph or do algebra or even know who the candidates were in the last election. So don't hide behind that old nut.

With the references to church, Sunday school, and a supreme being .. as well as the fact they say "does HE care about us" made me feel this was about pushing religion in schools. The fact is that unless the government manages these schools who is going to? We have private schools if you don't feel the government is running them correctly.

So basically you believe that underpriviledge children in Public Schools that cannot afford Private Education should have no right to acknowledge their beliefs and I assume this pertains to Holidays tied to Religion.

Unfortunately, the kind of private education being suggested would provide no benefit to anyone except narrow-minded bigots. There is a reason why secular, governmentally regulated education is good: it ensures that the curriculum will at least contain a certain amount of information, nevessary for the functioning of our society. If the thumpers had their way, their children would live in blessed ignorance, and we'd be slipping and sliding back to the dark ages.

I also assume that you voted incorrectly because you answered "Yes" to the Poll. "Yes" meaning you believe that School should be seperated from State.

*Scratches his head*

I agree for the most part, as we all know that private education as it exists today is probably of better quality than that of many public institutions.

However, the only thing that worries me is that children may end up with a totally different view of the world, depending what school they attend. Education may become ideological rather than objective.

For example, there are some private schools in the Milwaukee area that are teaching Afrocentrism as part of their curriculum. Part of their teachings include that ancient Greeks stole their main cultural achievements from black Egyptians; Jesus, Socrates and Cleopatra, among others, were black; and Jews created the slave trade of black Africans. While I understand the reasoning behind it, it does not make it right.

Same goes with religious schooling. Many tend to teach that their religion is right and everyone else's is not. Lets not forget the generation of fanatics religious schools (madrassahs) have produced in Pakistan. You don't think that could happen in Christian schools? Think again.

And last, if everyone goes to private school, how would we avoid further segregation?, not only among racial lines but economic too.

- T -

We need public schools for one very important reason. They're free. Do you honestly think if there were no public schools that the same percentage of kids would get educated? We have enough ignorant morons in this country already. Personally I think if you can't reach a minimum level of education you should be shipped off to the work farm to grow food for the other ignorant dumbasses who can't support themselves (or BE the food). I also agree with everything Tito just said. We need to improve our public schools, not get rid of them.

This quote is just moronic, and you can smell the religious bias from a hundred miles away. Yes, bad things will happen to your children if you teach them about that evil Darwinism instead of the glory of Jesus. Pfft. We already have parochial schools!

Oops, yeah i clicked the wrong one

Ahh you can't change your vote?

I think that public schools should be run by nuns, but only the right kind of nuns, ya know with the fishnet stockings and transparent whimples. It would give a whole new meaning for pubescent scholastics.

And, because about a zillion posters weren't able to bludgeon this point into your head, the "separation of church and state" isn't even a constitutional principle. It appears in one letter that ol' T.J. sent to some concerned Baptists.

Separation IS a constitutional principle. The phrase is from that letter, explaining the intent of the first amendment.

You can't have freedom OF religion without also having freedom FROM religion. The two are inseperable.

Let's look at the signatories, shall we?



WingNutDaily is a publication catering to the Christian Patriot movement. This would be the bunch that gave us The Order, Posse Komatatius, and Timothy McViegh. They're the lunatic fringe of the lunatic fringe. Articles in this web-rag include tirades against abortion, (with the usual outright lies) and a glowing article about what a wonderful person Jefferson Davis was, among other things.



You forgot 'religious nut.'

http://www.parentingbythebook.com/

It's no surprise that someone who thinks that decisions should all be 'consistent with the fundamental precepts of Judeo-Christian (Scriptural) morality' would be in favor of mandatory religious schooling.



Again.... an Apologist (advocate) for the Catholic Church is hardly a surprising supporter here.



You forgot 'rabid Libertarians.' They just don't like the idea of public schools in general.

P&T are, in general, smart people. But like many skeptics, they refuse to apply their skepticism to their pet philosophy.... this leads to some.... interesting areas of cognative dissonance at times.



Ick ick ick. Trust me, you do NOT want to be bragging about this guy's endorsement....

Some background....



Another rabid Libertarian. Again, no real surprise here. For some people, removing government influence in something is so important (regardless of how well the government is doing at it) that they'll ignore the fact that removing government makes it even worse. (Because of course, anything is better than government....)



...and rabidly opposed to public schooling, oddly enough. His books claim that there's some sinister conspiracy involved in public schooling to keep people 'dumb.' (He of course, never explains this beyond a few empty, question begging statements.)



Another christian apologist. His writings focus on attacking most of modern psychology (which he considers 'new age') and removing psychological principles from christian teachings.



Another religious advocate, in this case a creationist. Biola University is a conservative christian college. (And a private one.)



Homeschooling advocate and global warming denier. (Note how many of these signatories dislike science as it's taught in public schools..... coincidence?)



Once again..... anti-public schooling, especially since it teaches that evil evolutionism....



Rabid right winger, NWO conspiracy theorist. Public schools are a tool used by the global conspiracy to take over America.



Head of a Libertarian think tank. Again.... 'government bad! Market good!'



A more well known Libertarian think tank.... which has no credibility at all outside of Fox News. (For very good reason.)



Can't find anything here, will assume that he's a private citizen.



The Children's Scholarship Fund exists to send people to private schools. Dewey is linked with Gatto, so his inclusion here is also no real surprise.



Well known as a right-wing christian partisan, contributing huge amounts of money to the anti-choice movement.



Makes Limbaugh look a bit tame really. Rabid right-wing nutase.

linky



Libertarian presidential candidate. Again.... 'government BAD!!! Market GOOD!!!!'



Like most talk radio types.... rabidly right wing. Again, his endorsement of religious education is no real surprise.



The people who are bankrolling former Judge Moore in his attempt to put 10 commandments monuments on every street corner. Rabidly right wing, homophobic, bigoted religious group.



Again, a priest wanting compulsory religious education. Big shock.



...and racial separatist.

linky



Libertarian economist. Advocates lezziz-faire economic policies.



Didn't feel he'd 'learned anything' until he went to a muslim based school in Mauritania.

None of these supporters come as a particular surprise, and they have their own axes to grind.

Government involvement in education is extremely important. While often it promotes ideas that are less than ideal, and possibly even bad schooling it is schooling! Without government involvement there is no longer public schooling, forcing the less fortunate to go without schools, and only the middle and upper classes to be able to afford schooling.

Have you read Gatto's books Corwin? I mean really read them? They are actually pretty thought provoking.

Ok. So yes, unfortunatly this alliance proposal has a "christian" leadership. But I've talked in person with the founds, and Gatto, and others on this platform. And while they may be *very* religious, the alliance really does not seek to put religion in the schools, but simply to take the government out of schools. That of course brings its own set of concerns.

When my daughter was 6 months old (long before she was diagnosed with Autism), I founded a homeschool group in my State. It grew to 250 familes before I had to leave due to needing to do more than I could as a homeschooler. I founded that group on the fact that ALL were to be welcome. We even had homosexual couples in the group. Members were a mix of pagan, christian, jewish, athiest, wiccan. We were so very diverse. My goal was to bring that educational option to the people who were outcast due to the past diversion that happened midstream in homeschooling. Gah, I could go on for hours about it, but, I got hate mail and many harsh things thrown at me. At the same time, I spawned other secular groups to spring up. And for that I will always be proud.

There are *many* things wrong with our government schools. And done differently they *could* be better. I personally don't believe the government has any business in our lives other than for protection (military, etc). So of course I don't really like them educating my child. She is lucky though, she gets to be in the "special" classes. If she were not special...

crap.. I have to go .. i'll come back to this discussion!

Wow, you managed to dismissed all those people in one post. how impressive. I don't know about the rest to them but I have read a bit of John Taylor Gatto and I find that he makes alot of good points. As for not explaining his theories, he does so extensively, in fact he devotes chapters and chapters to the history and theory behind the American public school system.

Here is a not very long essay that basically summarizes his position on public schooling:

http://www.spinninglobe.net/againstschool.htm

and here is where you can find his book on the subject, you can read it online for free if you like:

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/

I recognize your concerns pen.... but we aren't talking about homeschool vs non homeschool here. What we're talking about is a group of people who won't rest until our children are indoctrinated into their beliefs. Reading over that group's page, and the pages of many of the signatories.... there are two basic groups here: The Libertarian camp, which simply wants government out of everything... (and we've all seen how well THAT works...) and the religious camp. The latter is the more dangerous of the two. They won't stop until they're in control.

They're more than happy to use you and yours to meet that end. And when they've done so? What exactly do you think they're going to be teaching your children?

I'm not saying all his points are invalid.... in some ways part of what he's saying is similar to what the left has been saying for decades. (Choamsky for example.) What I am saying is that he can hardly be called an unbiased or non-partisan supporter.

Huh?

What are you criteria for an unbiased supporter?

If by unbiased you mean someone who has no opinion on the subject, well then yes, he could hardly be considered unbiased since he seems to be making a career out of criticizing the education system but I don't see why anyone would get involved with this sort of thing if they didn't feel strongly about the subject.

Feeling strongly isn't the issue. Willingness to ignore consequences to satisfy one's ideology is.

I would suggest that you americans worry about separting church from state first, then separating church from school, and only then consider separating school from state.