Poll: Should LL End Dwell Payments

What say the general community? Should LL scrap dwell altogether. This is all or nothing - if you feel dwell should be continued, but reformed, vote "No".

If you think Dwell should be altogether ended, vote "Yes".

For the record, I favor the elimination of dwell payments.

I say no, let it continue.

I well understand why some people are against dwell as to them it only rewards those catering to what they think of as the baser desires, ie clubs and shopping malls of various types. It seems they feel reward should be given to those whose builds are the most artistic or scripts the most clever.

In other words, the snobs.

However, I believe dwell rewards those who justly earn it. Ultimately this 'game' is about socialization, regardless of what others want it to be. The various clubs and malls provide exactly that, socialization, cool stuff to buy and fun.

I completely agree that having to live next to one of these places sucks ... but really, that's a serparate issue. One of zoning.

To most of the people I always see complaining about the unfairness of it all and how wonderful they're builds/scripts are and how we should all publically and financially reward their skill, I say, stop whining and put your talents where your mouth is. If you want a piece of the dweel pie, put your talents to use making the best clubs/malls using the best fun filled scripts you possibly can! Blow the competition away with your brilliance.

If you say, "Well I don't want to build a club or mall, I want to build this incrediably artistic whatsis for people to stand around and admire", then I say, tough beans.

Continued but reformed. I am receptive to some suggested changes which were posted in another thread but it was derailed before a discussion could begin. I'd be interested in reading other's thought on the issue. Particularly since the cost of rating changed from $1 to $25, I think the opportunity to vote with your feet, free of charge, is something that I'd hate to see go by the wayside. In its current state, however, reconstruction is needed.

Give me an example of a non-club/non-casino/non-Tringo slum that actually benefits from it and I'll vote No.

Personally, I enjoy my little L$2 or so payments I get every day, but it seems like if Dwell payments were ended, there might be less crap in the Events calender.

(Probably not, though. It went quiet for a few weeks after they stopped funding non-educational events, but we can all see how much of an effect -that- ultimately had.)

I am not at all against socialization. Hermit though I may be, I fully understand that other people want to hang out and dance or shop or whatnot. But I don't see why people should be rewarded for gaming the Events listings or hanging a moneyball and declaring a contest. :\

Socialization is an important part of being human. People will do it with or without the promise of !!!***PRIZES!!!!.

Yesterday I saw 14 different Tringo/Slingo events run by the same person at the same place (under different accounts, of course, but they all had the same first name). I mean, that's got to take some dedication, sure.. But I really doubt they were doing that just for love of the game. And it just seems a little shady to me.

Personally, I think there are a lot of 'myths' about dwell held by those who don't receive it.

Dwell has the following atributes:

1. Pays out a TINY amount in Lindens every day.
2. Pays out enough to cover tier fees to those most busy every month.
3. (most importantly) Provides a number, like a Nielson Rating - that gives feedback as to how much foot-traffic a venue receives. This is important to both entertainment-based venues like clubs - or sales-based venues like malls.
4. The highest 'traffic-rated' venues are listed in Popular Places - providing a boost to buisness.

'Dwelloper' is a condescending term that applies to anyone attempting to make it in the service industry in SL. About as offensive as 'Scripterati' is to coders. I'm not certain that those so strongly opposed to dwell see that correlation.

Our world is *gigantic* and only going to get bigger. Surely there is enough room for all of us to coexist peacefully - without one group attempting to stifle the other.

Service industry - I think maybe that's what I'm getting at when I talk about entertainment. Do you think service industry would be a better term for me to use, Travis?

coco

hehe - that's up to you, Coco When I refer to the service industry, I mean those who provide a product that is intangable - such as entertainment, but not limited to that.

LL has already:

Lowered stippends
Removed social event hosting

Dwell, remove dwell. Um no, I would have to ask myself are development bonus' next.

50 in dwell might not mean anything to some but to me it means someone saw my hard work.

This is one of the worst ideas I have read in a long time.

People could start holding better events, regardless of what else the list is full of these days. Taking away what you think are "bad events" won't make the list magically fill up with "good events." Thus, removing dwell may get rid of said "bad events" but it won't turn the events list into anything accept a shorter list.... and you can do that right now using filters.

You make a really good point. Quality events have to be happening before they can be lost in the lists. Although I have do to say its shocking how hard it is to find show n tell events. I learned quickly I couldn't search for "show" ... and while its better to search for "tell", you still get a lot of events that seem to run all day, covering the gamut from yard sale to show n tell, in some mysterious way.

Dwell payments should only end when a better system has been established.

Any ideas?

After having lunch, I have to amend my post.

I'd support removing dwell IF they brought back the voting boxes.

Sure, it can be gamed just like before, but so can the current system. At least with the old voting boxes you could vote for stuff you merely flew over but were greatly impressed by.

Funny really, but after living with both systems and there flaws, I think the old system was a little fairer in that you could vote for something, raising it's status in the places directory, without actually having to stand there dancing around it all day.

I think it would also do a lot to revitalize something else I've noticed ... the growing lack of eye-catching builds. Back in the day, when we all flew everywhere because it cost too damn much money to teleport from Federal to Stage 4, there just seemed to be more fantatic builds sprouting up for no other reason that to catch the eye and fascinate the mind. Wow, you'd say to yourself, that's beautiful, as you quickly clicked the vote box before moving on.

I'd like to pose this question to the older citizens who were adamantly against the voting system because of voting packs gaming the system. Now that we've had some time with both systems, and seen how both systems are equally gamed, which do you prefer now?

So do you want the "snobs" to keep building nice stuff for us to stand and stare at, or not? You seem to miss having as much of it around, but you just finished lecturing earlier about why these people don't deserve the same rewards. I stopped before jumping on that earlier, but now you seem to be talking out both sides of your mouth. I think it got me initially to hear that since I build something artistic in SL rather than putting walls together, plastering porno pictures on the walls, and throwing thong competition events, that makes me a snob, rather than just simply offering something different to SL than what you or the next person might offer. Let's face it.... without one, we wouldn't have the other, now would we? What would the SL world be like if everyone did the same thing?

For the record, I voted "don't know, don't care" but I didn't take into consideration the effects it'd have on things like the events list for example.

People who build get paid via sales of their items (if they wish to sell them). People who run clubs don't have that luxury, so they get their payment via the dwell system and whatever other means available to them.

With that said, I think dwell should only be gotten rid of if/when club owners and the like are given other ways of earning their due in SL.

We've had that since beta. It's called the linden dollar. If it's worth attending, it's worth paying for. Maybe events would grow up and achieve some actual complexity.
Imagine, having plays in SL, where you actually buy a ticket and the actors actually get paid.

I agree completely.

I've never understood the mindset that says "entertain me for free; better yet pay me to be entertained". That attitude makes it impossible to seriously try to recover some or any costs with ticket sales.

I'd pay to see a play; I'd pay to hear a musical performance.

I'd love the opportunity to plan an outing with that sort of focus, and know that by paying for the privilege I was assured of a quality time.

But, as has been said elsewhere, with so much stuff for free, expectations get set. Talk about pushing a rock uphill; trying to charge for something now would have all sorts of hollering going on.

If we had a culture that supported "pay for what you get" .. then great builds like Chicago might not have so much trouble .. I for one would have paid for the privilege of seeing it. And any of several other builds that I really like.

So, sometimes, in the long-run, free isn't always good.

I think some folks have forgotton the reason why Linden Labs created the concept of Dwell in the first place:



The original thread is here: /16/ff/23421/1.html

Nowhere in the above post does Linden mention the reason for dwell as being a way to reward scripters, builders, animators, or other content creators. Dwell's focus was, and always has been - a way to reward residents who create popular locations.

That said, does the current system acheive that goal? Does it reward residents that create popular locations effectively? In my opinion, yes (although it could be improved.)

I think what is really being expressed here, is a distaste for what is found to be popular by the general community - and a wistfulness that it was something else.

To me the snobs are the ones who complain about how terrible the clubs and malls are and how no one appreciates their work by spending all day admiring it. They disparage the clubs and those who frequent them, and that has always bugged me.

Myself, I admire and enjoy the art and cleverly scripted works out there, but with few exceptions that aren't going to draw crowds to them in enough numbers to compete. Just a fact.

In large part any move to take away dwell is in reaction to the clubs and malls getting it all, when hey, that's what clubs and malls do! Get the crowds.

Now, if you think my being a little bit tired of the seemingly endless complaints about how terrible it is that the clubs get the dwell instead of the more highbrow, yet not so crowd drawing builds, then so be it.

Now ... back to the thread. Dwell is just that ... Dwell. I would prefer a return to the voting boxes since it would give an equal chance to everyone for popularity.

I voted 'don't know / don't care' simply because I really don't use dwell/traffic for anything myself.

When I buy land, it's because I like the location - when I go to a store it's because I want something there...

I don't benefit from dwell/traffic, nor does it hinder me - or influence my decisions.

That being said - seeing how it doesn't affect me and my second life - who am I to pass comment on it, when it very well MAY affect someone elses second life?

There are some to whom dwell/traffic is a very big deal.... Let em have at it.

Siggy.

I think that's a great point Travis, and I agree completely.

In the long run, I absolutely agree.

In the short run, I think dwell has served its purpose by helping SL grow - though not quite in the way I would have wanted it to.



So it all comes down to this:

Should artificial reward systems exist to begin with?




I think some people need them. Dwell, the Leaderboard, Ratings, et al, exist for those personalities.

But should we really be cattering to that mindset in a world where you can do virtually anything?

I'll leave that answer to you folks.

I am amazed this has not happened yet and cannot fathom why the cycle of entertainers paying the audience continues. Its beyond me.

Travis, for the record, when I posted this poll, I meant it at face value. No hidden meanings or agendas. I'm just curious to see where the general community stands on the issue.

Completely noted, Jamie. Didn't intend to insinuate that you did

And by my posting, I may have confused how I really feel on the subject:

If daily dwell payouts were removed, I probably wouldn't shed too many tears - because the amount is so trivial. My primary funding model is focused on Advertising & Sponsorship... not dwell.

The loss of Dev Incentive would suck, but I've always ran on a budget, and have a relatively tiny tier. I've got a good job in RL, and an additional $25 would still be a small price to pay to do something that I love.

The Traffic *numbers* however... are critical, IMHO. I see them like a Nielson rating - something that is integral to the RL US Television industry... which, I see a close connection to. (People don't 'pay' to watch broadcast TV in the US.)

In RL - a Nielson rating isn't acheived by 'votes' - its passively tabulated through a sample viewing audience and a set top box. To correlate it to SL - its easier for me to attract sponsors when I can 'prove' that my venue is generating a fair amount of traffic.

To me, Dwell is our set-top-box.