Wanting to Even the Playing Field?

To those of you who are screaming that its not fair that older players have more ratings that younger players.... Consider this for one moment.

If you were hired 10 years after the most senior worker at your company, your boss would just laught and probably fire you, if you insist on receaving the same pay as the guy who was there 10 years before you or if you suggest the senior workers pay be cut to match yours.

Thats exactly what is being done by tossing out ratings older than 6 months. Many people worked very hard for their ratings. It doesn't make sense at all to even the rating field...

None at all.

And if you haven't done anything at your job in the last 3 years, you should be fired.

But still the new workers would still not get the same pay.

SL is not a job. SL is a world. It has a culture.
If it werent for a few key historical people IRL, we would still be in the middle ages.
It is the same for SL.
Somewhere along the line, one person discovered that llRezObject was not "just for bullets" as the "old old timers" claimed.
Somewhere along the line, one person discovered a way around the 10m rezzing limit, after asking all the "old old timers" and getting told it was impossible.
Further along the line, a person discovered that you could couple llRezObject with, say, a sensor, to only rez objects as needed, saving taxes.
Even later, someone had to discover the fact that you could use llGiveInventory to rez things exponentially.
SL has a culture. A science. It builds upon a foundation. Without the "old old timers" I would have arrived in an empty world, and without me and my peers, so would you.
Someone had to be there, and be experienced, and have developed a shitload of little tricks and techniques, figured out all the bugs, the proper parameter ranges, the workarounds, before they could teach the first generation of noobies to arrive when SL launched.
And all of this having only 2 hours a day to play with.
Who wrote your handy little wiki?
How much more productive does such a guide make you?
Are you paying anything to use it?
I rest my case.

Eggy, good comments.

And then the old timer discovered how to sell said products and make way much more money than stipends ever provided. And people continued to see and buy these products and continued to rate them positively.

I don't see how the latest ratings change will affect old-timers' ratings relative to other players.

...

I, for one, am more satisfied by the IMs of people thanking me for freeware I've made, or complimenting me on a product I sell or my land, than someone buying one of my swords. Or Colt 45. Both of which you should buy. Immediately. *snickers*

But yeah, I think old-timers are rewarded plenty enough. No need to be greedy and hog the rates, too

This is NOT about money.
I do not freaking care about money and actively give it away.
I don't work for random strangers, or take on menial chores.
All that matters to me is my reputation.
So I dont take kindly when some forum change wipes 800 from my post count or some ratings change wipes 3 out of 4 ratings I ever got.
SL for me has always been about creativity and innovation.
It has always been about expressing myself, being the first to discover something, or to bring something into SL.
The RL analogy, IMHO, would be something like professor versus factory worker.
I could very well go into SL in an afternoon and build a random pile of low-prim crap that noobs would love to buy (and IM me about having it stuck to their heads!).
Heck, I would just have to rez a few games here and there. I used to make a lot of money back when I cared about it, I was even in the tops for a while.
I dont want to be a "factory worker", I am not interested in "products".
I would like to be a "professor", discovering what can be made and how to best go about it, laying down a skeleton for others to improve upon (and profit from).
The value of older "publications" should not be diminished. SL is based on physics discovered by Newton and the ancient Greeks!
Does the fact that Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein died a long time ago make them any less important?
Just ask Ulrika how much time she saves by asking me a few questions before starting a project

"If I have seen further [than certain other men] it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants."

That said, the rating system is pretty moot in my book. Sure, it's there, but in the grand scheme of things, you are you - or if you'd prefer, your reputation. Not your rating number.

To remember and appreciate that which came before you is a rare trait, and frankly hard to come by in my experiences (see: 15 minutes of fame). Such is why I support things like the SL History Wiki.

Eggy, people will know you whether your post count says 0 or 2 million.
People will respect your builds whether you have triple 2000 rates or triple 50 rates.

Have faith, man. Numbers are just that - titles in a company, or college diplomas - just things, you know? People will respect you for who you are, and you're a damn fine player and lots of people know this. No ranking will add or subtract from this.

EDIT: To add to this, Eggy... there are plenty of people who got the same number of rates in-game as you just by clubbing and rate-spamming. So rates never did reflect your talent anyway.

sounds like a ploy from the Vocal Minority (tm) to me...

LF, heh, if the majority of people jumped off the Brooklyn Bridge, does that make the vocal minority (tm) saying "STOP!" wrong? No.

I disagree with him as well, but examine his arguments, not his affiliations

Tossing out ratings is not necessarily like cutting the pay of oldbies.

In a way, it makes SL *more* like a job. It pays people for their performance over the last 6 months. The old/original rating system paid people the same whether they did something great two weeks or two years ago. That's not how most people run their companies.

Perhaps there should be a way to reward people in an ongoing fashion for great one-off builds or innovations. But at this point it doesn't look like the ratings system is going to be it. (We do have developers incentives, though I'm not sure how much L$ that puts into the economy. I suspect not much.) At this point it looks like the ratings system is going to get so patched up it's going to collapse under its own weight.

Agreed in one sense, but in another - there is plenty of free content in SL.

But for $10 for a forever membership, what does one expect?

[/quote]Perhaps there should be a way to reward people in an ongoing fashion for great one-off builds or innovations. But at this point it doesn't look like the ratings system is going to be it. (We do have developers incentives, though I'm not sure how much L$ that puts into the economy. I suspect not much.)[/quote]
Consider:
(a) Charge more for your one-offs. (I just paid Ricky Michelson a good chunk of change for a new, custom polar bear AV, and it looks great. It was still a steal, considering the work he put into it.)
(b) You get better reputation int he community for building cool stuff. (Lots of people will remember Juro Kothari's Cannibus Cathedral, for example.)
(c) I agree with dwelloper incentives being hokey. It could be crafted to reward for something other than traffic on land - like how many people own your object. (hey, that's a decent idea, I'm gonna go post that)

It had already collapsed. Now it's being fixed.

No one has worked at all for ratings period. The rating system is so flawed it can't be fixed and LL shouldn't be wasting time and resources trying to fix it. They should wipe em all and drop the whole idea.

Eggy, agreed. i'm glad when i see people like who who care about what they, and others, bring to SL.. what SLers do to furthur the evolution of our world.

now, as far as forum posts go.. you have a problem with wipes of hundreds of old posts? well, you know what? ...so do i!!! i understand it's not the number that matters, it's the fuller picture of who you are and everything that makes you that person. by cutting all these posts (i've lost about 1,000 myself) we have essentially lost a large chuck of who we are in relation to our community via written representation.

-

on the hand, honestly, ratings don't matter for squat.. not where it counts. i understand the frustration of earning a large amount of ratings just to watch them disappear, but the meaning behind them was stripped of their validity a long time ago. too many people have involved themselves in rating parties, newbie welcoming, neg bombings, etc..
the ratings have been broken for a while and as i mentioned elsewhere.. i can only hope this is the beginning of the end of ratings. hopefully to be replaced by a more meaningful system that will offer more options and wider social commentary.

Why, I thank you, Eggy, for providing a perfect window iconic insight into the life of the Feted Inner Core.

All of these attitudes that you've so wonderously expressed here, are in fact the greatest obstacle to this game reaching its million mark, the greatest obstacle to its freedom, and the greatest obstacle to creating a dream for Philip Linden, yourself, myself, and the next self, if you could only become more aware of them, and see their terrible ramifications.

And...don't take it personally and get all bent out of shape because, sure, I appreciate that everywhere, there used to be "a little bit of Eggy" but well...it's different now.

Why does it get to be "about money" for Philip Linden, but it doesn't have to be "about money" for his legions of feted lifers? Don't take it personally, I just ask this as a generic, economic, common-sense question!

You don't work for random strangers. You benefit all mankind with your freebies but...you don't work for random strangers. Now...can you see the terrible internal contradiction in this that leads to horrors?

I do work for random strangers, I take on menial chores, and I get paid. It's great! That's how normal economies in normal worlds work. I realize this is an economy shot through with geekitude, but...well...I do believe in customer service, I think it's vital to economies!

That kind of elitist, snobbish attitude that combines hatred of service to fellow mankind, with arrogant notions of providing free stuff for the masses, is called, er...Bolshevism? When it isn't called Nazism...? DO you get it?

You can't see it...you're angry...but...can you try to see it? The internal contradiction? That says "I make something for free, I dispense my largesse to the poor folks in the game who can't make content like scripty thingies, I am God, bow down, worship me...and goddamn it, I'm not your fucking butler, I will not wait on you so fuck you if you don't take my free scripty thingie and forever thank me for it."

This snobbish idea that I "don't want to be a factory worker" and "I'm not interested in products" -- did you read Ayn Rand a lot when you were a kid? Geez. There is such a thing as creative, high-end production that is still a product and still for sale, even if it isn't some tacky widget, for one. But for two, what is it to "be a professor"? To "be a professor" usually means, in this country where many of us are physically located, is to be a paid Marxist in a place that doesn't believe in Marxism, unlike the rest of the world where Marxists no longer get paid LOL. And to get paid for by a state college budget or benighted rich people who fund private budgets LOL. What is "being a professor" really all about these days but that? I mean, if you break it down...

Oh, it's always about discovering stuff and being recognized and being the first. Me, me, me. Well, that's fine. I'm happy to have you get credit, be important, but then...test yourself on the market. Let me buy your product...or not. Make a better clever thingie than the next guy. And stop looking to be worshipped, feted, and subsidized just because you're a RL programmer! Please!

Really, you make a free thing and we're all supposed to go on worshipping you forever? Hiro, why don't you start making the vendors for sale, and provide HELP SERVICE LIVE CUSTOMER SERVICE? I know many people who struggle FOR HOURS to get those things working right. SELL THEM and use the money to HIRE CUSTOMER SERVICE STAFF.

Argghghghg you people don't want to let go of your tekki wiki illusions...

Yeah, this problem goes very, very, VERY deep! I don't know if Philip himself understands the ramifications of his visionary statement. But these "engines of creation" as he calls it -- himself, his geeky friends, and you all who have been feted with subsidies, ratings bonuses and the resounding thunder of head-patting for ages, are all going to have to face the music now: you can't have socialism for ever, and only capitalism can go on providing the free flow of information, goods, and services that might approximate your utopian world. It means parting with your utopian socialist illusions, but ultimately, you will live in a saner, happier, healthier world.

"Breathing life" into this creation, freeing of its truly fetid stiffled inner core, is not an easy task, because the fetid don't want to leave gracefully or realize that they could stay gracefully by just testing themselves on genuine markets and treating their customers a lot more nicely!

Forum posts? Hello??? You actually think someone will go back and read your posts, or cares one good goddman that you have 100000 forum post and some fanboyz silly title awarded by forum mavens from the game company like Geek Chic?? Who cares? And if you care, make a player-driven site that preserves all this and shows off those titles.

And what exactly have you contributed to our world, Prokofy? Aside from vitriol, paranoia, and jealousy that is. Please do enlighten us.

I predict that all of this will be moot point someday, since I suspect that the Lindens are moving us toward doing away with tying stipends to ratings, and, indeed, giving us a weekly stipend at all. I think it's just a matter of time before the Lindens stop handing out money every week and we all get used to the concept of buying SL good for US$ (or other world currencies). At that point, joining some sort of collective (such as Neualtenburg) which shares goods and services among members may be an attractive option for some members who don't want to whip out a credit card to buy a virtual car or dress. Heck, Edkc Gardner already has a website (I'm not listing the URL because I'm not going out of my way to advertise for him ) where you can buy his clothing and other SL goods for US$.

The argument that ratings currently equals a SL equivalent to "Whuffie" (read Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom by Cory Doctorow if you don't know what Whuffie is) just doesn't hold up because of the way ratings have been gamed. The sooner that LL takes away the ties between ratings and stipend, the better.

I'm not too sure LL will ever do away with stripends. It would be a dangerous gamble, since many folks can't afford to pay for a land tier, let alone paying $US for things like virtual clothes, cars, funny hats, etc.

I really think you'd lose alot of the basic and 512m premium accounts, and it would certainly open up the door for competition. LL, I'm sure, want folks to enjoy SL, and not make it a "must work" atmosphere for everyone. The stripend is already small, and folks are unable to afford much, without GOM'ing or running a successful SL business. I know alot of folks are alot broker even with the relatively small changes that were recently implemented. I know I'm certainly getting sick of dishing out so much real money for my tier AND helping poorer folks out, running contest events, texture uploads, animation uploads, etc., not to mention recent purchases such as PSP and Poser.

All said and done, SL at the present time can be enjoyed with very little cost, but to really dive into it costs alot of cold, hard cash. No other Online game/chat experience has ever cost me even 1/4 of what I'm paying to LL each month. Sure some folks are making money instead of losing it, and more power to them. But I didn't come into SL to work my ass off. I do that already each day in the RL. I came to be creative and to build, and to chat and to help folks out if I can.

Sure, screw ratings. At the very least, wipe them all back to zero and let us start fresh. Or do away with them completely. But don't take away people's already small stripends. It would hurt the consumer as well as the content providers.

I completely reject your labelling of my insightful, inquisitive, muck-raking, and demanding questioning as "vitriot, paranoia, and jealousy" ROFL.

Questioning YOU and the other privileged content barons, script jockeys and dollhouse makers yeah, sure, it does appear to YOU as vitriol because it punctures your balloons. And it does appear to YOU as jealousy because it seems like you'd think everyone would want to be a content baron when in fact, they reject the whole valuation system of content baronry. And sure, paranoia is what calling you on your monopolies sure does look like to YOU ROFL.

I'm not jealous, I have a great time in this game and I question to the hilt the idea that people who are content barons and script jockeys and dollhouse builders should get to be fuck-you hedonists and feted inner elite who obstruct the game's freedom for others and obstruct the creation of a free and democratic market by:

a) not charging for their services and goods
b) charging extortionist amounts for their services and goods
c) not providing customer service and treating the customer with respect

I don't have to justify what I do as a "contribution". This whole nasty hectoring question of "what have you contributed" -- like the haughty, elitist, snobbish admonitions to me by some that I should "contribute" to the game -- are notions of the left-over socialist utopian world originally created with its feted hedonists and snobbish script jockeys.

Contribute according to what you value? Contribute only in the way you think should be contributed? Sometimes questioning and even tearing down can be a very, very valuable contribution to a society. If nobody questioned the Berlin Wall, if nobody tore down the Berlin Wall, if everybody sat around asking those who questioned the Berlin Wall "what have YOU contributed," well, we'd still have the Berlin Wall!

There's a shorter form to describe the idea that people have to "contribute" or that they are judged by their "contributions". Lenin thought of it. He said "To each, according to his need, from each, according to his ability." It was a pernicious, evil thing disguised as a false Christian altruism. Later, it was adapted by Soviet henchmen bureaucrats to "From each according to his ability, to each according to his *work*" -- even more evil!

You don't have to be a "contributor" according to Chip Midnights Scale of Contribution Evaluation in this game. You just have to show up, pay $9.95, and do whatever you want that doesn't violate the TOS.

I personally reject any valuation of art and game play that centers as its value unit the Chip Midnight Realistic Skin costing thousands of Lindens. Sorry, but that's just "me".

I think I personally do an enormous amount to "contribute" to the game in the sense of the society of users, by persistently questioning the incredible obstacles that exist to impede its development and freedom and the incredibly obnoxious and stubborn attitudes of those inhabiting the feted inner core.

Such dissent is never valued at the time of its inception, but hey, stick around, and maybe someday, school children and factory workers will get the day off named in my honour : )

i believe it should be noted that i don't make a lot of money.. probably less than most. my aim has nothing to do with money, nor does it have any "feted/fetid" qualities. while i may be a "mid-bie", i have not come into a position of respect for my creations, nor for parties, clubs, land development, etc..

my main goal, my pursuit in SL, is to help facilitate a brighter and more intense future.

BOTH of the quotes in my sig are quite self-explanantory of how i view SL. just because i realize the value of history (re: lost posts) doesn't mean i decry it's demise for personal fame, nor do i expect everyone to go digging through this history just to find more information about me; however, there have been multiple times when one person or another has gone trudging through the archives to find a referrence or some other information of significant, sometimes for fun, importance.
..you see, it's part of our history, part of who we are. using the logic of "who cares", then maybe we should start hiring firemen a la Fahrenheit 451? using said logic, no one should care if a journal written by George Washington, or even John Doe, were to be simply 'deleted'.. because who cares, right?
..see, history, in all it's forms, is important in one way or another. even negative periods are important, they teach us what to avoid in the future.


and as far as "head-patting" goes.. wait, let me log into SL to get precise numbers for you.. *loading* ok, here we go.. i joined SL January 27th of 2004 and all this head-patting has equalled what in stipends/bonuses? one example would be to share my personal ratings:

Behaviour : +100 -0
Appearance: +99 -0
Building : +61 -1
Given : +328 -0

now i ask you, does this sound like i've been coddled? would you like to know how much my stipend is? this week: L$638. how "inner core" is that? wow man.. oh, and also.. that's my ONLY income! if someone asks me to make something simple, i'll do it if i have the time.. and i won't even charge for uploading fees.


i understand you have a more socio-economic viewpoint of SL, but i see it as a creative and intellectual haven for anyone to experience. the point i'm making though is this: we're both right! that's the beauty of it.. WE are helping to shape the destiny of this world. if you want to focus on encouraging the economical infrastructure, so be it and more power to you.. we need that just as much as we need those who act soley upon a vision of a future that none of us can even imagine.

a title means nothing, it's presenting myself continuously in a manner i would be proud of, this is what drives me. i have no need of showing off anything so trivial. i do have a website, it's not doing anything yet, but it will serve multiple purposes.. none of which are to tout any perceived "feted-ness".

please, further describe what evils SLers like Eggy and myself pose.. this isn't a taunt, i'm seriously curious as to what, exactly, harm we pose by trying to help SL grow in other areas besides financial.

-

i'll stop for now.. thanks for listening (if anyone actually read this entire post! lol)

I believe on that day, that the Lindens give in and end all pay, you will see the largest riots ever in Second Life.

Very well spoken, Cybin. ~ Perse

Explain to me again how Chip has a monopoly?

I forgot to add "delusional."



How exactly do you think people earned their reputations? Do you think they were handed out just by virtue of being here a long time? There are people who've been here since beta that the average user (including me) have never even heard of. Reputations and respect are earned, not given just because someone has a hissy fit and demands it. For example, it is very likely that the vast majority of SL'ers will never respect you, old or new. The only thing you're becoming known for is your bizarro rants against your supposed oppressors. How can we be so all powerful and yet so unimportant all at the same time? That would seem to be a bit of a contradiction, wouldn't you say? Please explain to me how anyone in SL can create a monopoly and then provide me with examples of said monopolies and how they're enforced.



Ahh, I see. So people who are generous with their time and skills are fucking it up for everyone else, eh? Oh, wait... no... they're charging too much for their goods and services! Aha! It all makes sense now... er, no... which is it? This is a market economy where the market determines the price of things. Charge too much for low quality and no one will buy. Are there roving bands of armed feted elitists holding you at gunpoint and forcing you to buy their goods? No? Didn't think so. By the same token, develop a reputation for providing crappy customer service and you will become known for it and people won't buy your goods. Are you suggesting that this supposed feted elite somehow robs people of their free will? It must be some techy geeky scripty thing that does it I guess. The LSL mind control device! Shocking!



Hey, you're starting to catch on! You're right. You don't have to justify yourself to anyone. By the same token, no one has to justify themselves to you! You can't have it both ways. You can't write 400 pages of vitriolic drivel ranting about the supposed uber class that has no meaning to you and then turn around and expect others not to judge you based on their own subjective values. Do you see how that works? I'm guessing rocket scientist isn't your day job. No one can hector like you, Prokofy. Perhaps if the rest of us work hard enough we can some day aspire to your hectoring greatness.



Oooooh what an amazing analogy!! Uhhhh, not. Where is the Berlin Wall in SL? Oh, that's right... there isn't one! (except in your fevered imagination).



Well then, if no one's contributions matter then I guess it's pretty impossible for this horrible unfairness you speak of to exist isn't it. So nice of you to refute your own arguments within your own post. So which is it Prokofy... a tyrrany of capitalsim or of socialism? Can a monopoly exist under socialism?



Correct again! Unless of course someone happens to build something that isn't a violation of the TOS but that you don't like, in which case you'll neg rate them and decry their "fuck you hedonism" on the forum.



Hey, good for you! Freedom of choice is a wonderful thing... and something we all have, thankfully. Lucky for me not everyone feels that way since I sell several skins a day. Apparantly some people DO value what I make, of their own free will. Others surely do not and as a result don't buy my goods. Everyone wins! Allow me to quote you from another thread...



I couldn't agree more! It works very well for me in the skin business. I am very well incentivized.



I doubt many people can hold a candle to you in the obnoxious and stubborn attitude category. Does that count as a contribution? Perhaps you can start charging for it. Doing well with the rental space you advertise at the bottom of your posts? I've heard it's rather overpriced... but that's just me.



Dissent is valuable when it's rational and actually relates to reality. Sadly, yours falls far short of that mark.