What color coded threat warning are we at now?

Say what? How could anyone, liberal or conservative, actually think that having that the September 11th attacks were a good thing?
(Okay, yes, a few religious nuts thought it was worth doing, but I'm not talking about the perpetrators.)

*lurks, drinks soda, keeps tally*

Misquote. Voltaire never said that. I may remind you, that Voltaire died in 1778. This was a little bit before freedom was the latest buzzword.



Please state where you have defended these rights? I could swear freedom of religion was a right, last time I checked.

I have always found it amazing and to a point entertaining to watch citizens repurposing the strawman tactics and red herrings which are so graciously given to us by our huggable and loving politicians.

When I noticed the topic was going awry...I stepped out of the arena...but now I must say Cash your propoganda maelstrom is straight out of the anals of "How to be like Billy Graham without losing your Rush Limbaugh edge."

The whole I will defend your rights as long as you do not care about the truth and follow the white line to room 101 if you do, argument is one of the most commonly used by those with an adjenda far removed from the constitution by which we stand and which they so often quote out of context. Much like those who quote the bible, koran and less frequently (because it is so darn yummy) the Bhagda Gita.

Ohh and in the US we pledge allegiance to no one...not a flag, not a state only to ourselves because it is all for the people and by the people baby.

I for one don't think that what happened on 9/11 was a good thing...but what happened afterwards...bad very, very bad! We alienated every nation in the world and made ourselves look like a bunch of third graders fighting in the sandbox over who peed on little jimmies castle...and when we couldn't find the culprit we threw down on an easier target...Hell the higher ups in the pentagon were even taking bets on how long it would last...they all lost since most of them but on 30-90 days...Last time I checked we are still there.

In 50 years our children will be watching this war in their schools and studying various war propoganda techniques much like we do now with wwII.

ohh and on a side note

One of the most effective ways to control a population and strip them of their freedoms without any backlash is to invoke fear and rally them around the flag.

Terror is not a man...it is not a place it resides in the minds of those who choose to be terrified. I for one refuse to be afraid of my Government or of some assinine attempt to destroy it whether from forces inside or outside. Why am I not affraid...because I have chosen to be informed. The only threat to our freedom lies in this country...not overseas, not in the caves of Afganastan...they are in the oval office right now deciding how to make us feel small and incapable of making our own decisions, of protecting ourselves.

Because then what would happen...well we would realize that we really need to protect ourselves against them.

I am a revolutionary so that my son shall be a farmer so that his son shall be a philosopher.

Ohh yeah and what the hell does going to Iraq have to do with a moral compass? War in any carnation is not moral bottom line...I do not subscribe to morality because it is the twisted and easily perverted second cousin of my friend ethics. Maybe GWB would be better off purchasing a handy dandy ethics compass...He could always hire someone to read it for him...the words may not all be mono syllibic.

I would also like an explanation as to how it is to be considered moral and liberty inducing to imprison thousands of men women and children put bags on their heads and beat them, molest them with phosphoric lights, force them to commit acts against their moral code ( which is far more strict than the christian moral code) and continue this untill they Thank Jesus for their freedom....hmmm ain't sounded too moral to me but I'm just an ethical anti-religious hippy what do I know?

Quoted Cash:

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." -THomas Paine

So we are better off going back to policies of appeasement? We saw where that got us with Carter and the Shah of Iran, we destroyed a valuable political ally in the mid east back then.

Or is the policy of throwing money at the problem, as Clinton did with North Korea acceptable as well?

Remember, you can throw meat at an angry dog to keep it from biting, but once the meat runs out, he will surely still bite.

I guess having a strong moral compass is a bad thing these days. Courage of conviction and a sense of duty are being replaced with fluffy bunny "feel good" acts of appeasement, when appeasement only satisfies the injured party, leaving the dog free to bite another time.

If you were cleaning out a pile of brush in your backyard, with your young children or nieces or nephews nearby, and uncovered a nest of rattlesnakes that were now upset, would you not take a hoe and cut their heads off? Or would you wait and put your family at risk?

Give me my compass, and my convictions, you want to be a meatshield? Join the Sean Penn or Jane Fonda fan clubs. Just allow me my freedom, and the right to fight to keep that freedom.

It's been a truly mind-blowing experience for me to endure these past few years of "persecuted right winger" backlash that the country's been experiencing. One long-time friend went so far overboard in rants like we're seeing here that I had to tell him he was no longer welcome in a mutual hangout I maintained. The fundamental problem with that kind of person is simply that they believe in some overarching authority given to them or their moral code. Anyone that derives a moral code in isolation from consideration for the welfare of people who disagree with it, is a form of evil in my opinion that's truly dangerous.

I'm a bit of a ranter, so I'll try and keep this short and find a point. Chip Midnight, you rock. That's pretty much the long and short of it. Great builder, great wordsmith (particularly in situations like this one) and a person with a properly open and rational mind. As others have said, you speak what I believe in a lot clearer a way than I could.

My only hope is that this kind of ultra-partisan left/right christian/everyone-else fighting will come to an end before the human race does.

I think you hit it right on the head Alexander. The Christian persecution complex was bad enough, but then the republican party decided to adopt it I think. I like to think that it's all a big cycle. People only tolerated the ultra-conservative and ultra-paranoid period of the 1950's for so long before we had the major backlash of the 1960's. My fingers are crossed that history repeats itself!

Hypocrit.