The big lie

I happened upon this article while perusing a link posted in the general section, very interesting spin. I usually just turn the phrase "The Big Lie" but this provocative article expands on the idea quite nicely:

A LITERARY, POLITICAL AND PHILOSOPHICAL ONLINE MAGAZINE
September 29, 2002

The Rise of the Fourth Reich

Everyone likes to say, "Hitler did this," and "Hitler did that."

But the truth is: Hitler did very little. He was a world class tyrant, but the evil actually done by the Third Reich, from the death camps to
WWII, was all done by German citizens who were afraid to question if what they were told by their government was the truth or not, and who,
because they did not want to admit to themselves that they were afraid to question the government, refused to see the truth behind the Reichstag
Fire, refused to see the invasion by Poland was a staged fake, and followed Hitler into national disaster.

The German people of the late 1930s imagined themselves to be brave. They saw themselves as the heroic Germans depicted by the Wagnerian
Operas, the descendants of the fierce Germanic warriors who had hunted wild boar with nothing but spears and who had defeated three of Rome's
mightiest legions in the Tuetenberg Forest.

But in truth, by the 1930s, the German people had become civilized and tamed, culturally obsessed with fine details in both science and
society. Their self-image of bravery was both salve and slavery.

Germans were required to behave as if they were brave, even when they were not. It's easy to look back and realize what a jerk Hitler was.
But at the time, Hitler looked pretty good to the German people, with the help of the media. He was TIME Magazine's Man of the Year in 1938. The German people assumed they were safe from a tyrant. They lived in a Republic, after all, with strict laws regarding what the government could, and more importantly,
could not do. Their leader was a devoutly religious man, and had even sung with the boy's choir of a monastery in his youth.

The reality was that the German people, as individuals, had lost their courage. The German government preferred it that way as a fearful people are easier to rule than a courageous one. But the German people didn't wish to lose their self-image of courage. So, when confronted with a situation demanding individual courage in the form of a government gone wrong, the German people simply pretended that the situation did not exist. And in that simple self-deception lay the ruin of an entire nation and the coming of the Second World War.

When the Reichstag burned down, most Germans simply refused to believe suggestions that the fire had been staged by Hitler himself. They were afraid to. But so trapped were the Germans by their belief in their own bravery that they willed themselves to be blind to the evidence before their eyes so that they could nod in agreement with Der Fuhrer while still imagining themselves to have courage, even as they avoided the one situation which most required real courage; to stand up to Hitler's lies and deceptions.

When Hitler requested temporary extraordinary powers, powers specifically banned under German law, but powers Hitler claimed he needed to have to deal with the "terrorists", the German people, having already sold their souls to their self-delusions, agreed. The temporary powers were conferred, and once conferred lasted until Germany itself was destroyed.

When Hitler staged a phony invasion from Poland, the vast majority of
the German people, their own self-image dependant on continuing blindness
to Hitler's deceptions, did not question why Poland would have done something so stupid, and found themselves in a war.

But Hitler knew he ruled a nation of cowards, and knew he had to spend the money to make the new war something cowards could fight and win. He decorated his troops with regalia to make them proud of themselves, further trapping them in their self-image. Hitler copied the parade regalia of ancient Rome to remind the Germans of the defeat of the legions at the Tuetenberg Forest. Talismans were added from orthodox religions and the occult to fill the soldiers with delusions of mystical strengths and an afterlife if they fell in battle. Finally, knowing that it takes courage to kill the enemy face to face, Hitler spent vast sums of money on his wonder weapons, airplanes, submarines, ultra-long range artillery, the world's first cruise missile and the world's first guided missile, weapons that could be used to kill at a distance so that
those doing the killing need not have to face the reality of what they were
doing.

The German people were lured into WWII not because they were brave, but because they were cowards who wanted to be seen as brave, and
found that shooting long range weapons at people they could not see took less courage than standing up to Hitler. Sent into battle by that false image of courage, the Germans were dependent on their wonder-weapons. When the wonder-weapons stopped working, the Germans lost the war.

I remember as a child listening to the stories of WWII from my grandfather and my uncles who had served in Europe. I wondered how the German people could have been so stupid as to have ever elected Hitler dog catcher, let alone leader of the nation. Such is the clarity of historical hindsight. And with that clarity, I see the exact same mechanism that Hitler used at work here in this nation.

The American people imagine themselves to be brave. They see themselves as the heroic Americans depicted by Western movies, the descendants of the fierce patriot warriors who had tamed the frontier and defeated the might of the British Empire.

But in truth, by the dawn of the third millennium, the American people have become civilized and tamed, culturally obsessed with fine details in both science and society. Their self-image of bravery is both salve and slavery. Americans are required to behave as if they are brave, even when they are not. The American people assume they are safe. They live in a Republic, after all, with strict laws regarding what the
government can, and more importantly, cannot do. Their leader is a devoutly religious man.

The reality is that the American people, as individuals, have lost their courage. The government prefers it that way, as a fearful people are easier to rule than a
courageous one. But Americans don't wish to lose their self-image of courage. So, when confronted with a situation demanding courage in the form of a government gone wrong, the American people simply pretend that the situation does not exist.

When the World Trade Towers collapsed, most Americans simply refused to believe suggestions that the attacks had been staged by parties working for the U.S. Government itself. Americans were afraid to, even as news reports surfaced proving that the U.S. Government had announced plans for the invasion of Afghanistan early in the year, plans into which the attacks on the World Trade Towers which angered the American people into support of the already-planned war fit entirely too conveniently. But so trapped are Americans by their belief in their own bravery that
they will themselves to be blind to the evidence before their eyes so that they can nod in agreement with the government while still imagining themselves to have courage, even as they avoid the one situation which most requires real courage; to stand up to the government's lies and deceptions. The vast majority of the American people, their own self-image dependant on continuing blindness to the government's deceptions, never question why Afghanistan would have done something so stupid as to attack the United States, and as a result, Americans find themselves in a war.

Now the U.S. Government has requested temporary extraordinary powers, powers specifically banned under Constitutional law, but powers the government is claiming they need to have to deal with the "terrorists". The American people, having already sold their souls to their self-delusions, are agreeing. The temporary powers recently conferred will be no more temporary in America than they were in Germany.

The U.S. Government knows they rule a nation of cowards. The government has had to spend the money to make the new war something cowards can fight. The
government has decorated the troops with regalia to make them proud of themselves, further trapping them in their self-image. Talismans are added from orthodox religions and the occult to fill the soldiers with delusions of mystical strengths and an afterlife if they fall in battle. Finally, knowing that it takes courage to kill the enemy face to face,
the United States government has spent vast sums of money on wonder weapons, airplanes, submarines, ultra-long range artillery, cruise missiles, and guided missiles, weapons that kill at a distance so that those doing the killing need not have to face the reality of what they are doing.

As I mentioned above, Hitler was TIME Magazine's Man of the Year in 1938. Stalin was TIME Magazine's Man of the Year for 1939 and 1942. Both of these men, and many others also celebrated by the media, were unimaginable monsters. The lesson from these facts is that it isn't easy to spot a genocidal tyrant when you live with one, especially one whom the press supports and promotes. Tyrants become obvious only when looking back - after what they have done becomes known. The German people did not stand up to Hitler because their media betrayed them, just as the
American media is betraying the American people by willingly, voluntarily, even proudly, abandoning its traditional role as watchdog against government abuse.

It is the very nature of power that it attracts the sort of people who should not have it. The United States, as the world's last superpower, is a prize that attracts men and women willing to do absolutely anything to win that power, and hence are also willing to do absolutely anything with that power once they have it. If one thinks about it long enough, one will realize that all tyrants, past and most especially present, MUST use deception on their population to initiate a war. No citizen of a modern industrialized nation will send their children off to die in a war to grab another nation's resources and assets, yet resources and assets are what all wars are fought over. The nation that wishes to initiate a war of conquest must create the illusion of an attack or a threat to start a war, and must always give their population of cowards an excuse never to question that carefully crafted illusion.

It is naive, not to mention racist, to assume that tyrants appear only in other nations and that somehow America is immune simply because we're Americans. America has escaped the clutches of a dictatorship thus far only through the efforts of those citizens who, unlike the Germans of the 1930s, have the moral courage to stand up and point out where the government is lying to the people. And unless more Americans are willing to have that kind of individual courage, then future generations may well look back on the American people with the same harshness of judgment
with which we look back on the 1930s Germans.

http://groups.msn.com/GnosticTheOtherSide/theriseofthefourthreich.msnw

My history teacher told me German hate of Jews wasn't a new idea the Nazis brought in, the Germans had hated the Jews for years and years... Hated them, but not been so desperate as to want to kill them.

In 1929 it must have felt like the world ended. After world war one Germany's whole economy was shattered, but their Chancellor Weimar borrowed heavily off the US, invested in industry, and got them going. Then the US had the wall street crash, asked for the money back, and they were as bad as they'd ever been.

Imagine a time when you're mad. Everything's just going wrong for you. Seems like the world hates you... You just want to know who's to blame, so you can smash them in... Yeah, get the guy to blame for it all...

Hitler fanned the flames. They hated the Jews anyway, but in a time when they were all angry, and lost, and confused, he said "Now we've got to get them", and people were so disillusioned they went along with it. It feels good to take your problems out on someone else, especially if you don't like them anyway.

It's true, the German people are as guilty as Hitler. I think he isn't that much to blame, because killing six million people? How can one man ever be responsible for all that, unless he lets off a whole nuke storage facility... He was bad, very bad. An excellent politician and public speaker, he whipped the people up, and he led them down his chosen path, but they didn't resist too hard...

Hitler wasn't the only bomber child on the blonde, blue and anti-Jew love train though....there were many Eugenists in the US supporting the lie as it would forward their own selective breeding agendas...the name Prescott keeps coming to mind.

That is a very chilling commentary Isis, though in my opinion not an unfair comparison that I have heard many people make recently. Many of those people, should know, they were the ones who escaped concentration camps and/or were liberated by the Americans.

When people who have been thorught it, look at America today and say - "Please look at what you are doing, we know, we have been there.", I am chilled to the bone.

America can withstand one bad president, hell we have withstood many. What America, as a Republic, cannot withstand is the dissimination of our US Constitution - which has been going on since the late 1960's actually. It started with our "War on Drugs" and then next nail in the coffin is the Patriots Act and Homeland Security.

We are even using similar spin vocabulary: "Patriots Act", how can you be against being a patriot?

"Homeland Security" - sounds warm and fuzzy dosen't it, like your Dads waiting just around the corner for you and the bad guys won't get you because Dad will protect you.

Family Values - how can ANYONE be against family values even when they change an intended secular society into a non-secular society.

TIPS - Total Information Awareness - Ah yes, report your neighbor because they [your neighbor] could be one of those bad terrorists, plotting day and night to overthrow the American government. Lets further erode trust between individuals in this country.

"War on Drugs" - a battle with no defined enemy that we will never be able to win because humans have been finding various substances to alter their reality since the beginning of time (alcohol) and will continue to do so.

Spin... Spin.... Spin....

Jews were choosen in Germany as the scapegoat because the German economy was bad and many Germans attributed it to the Jewish people because they handled most of the banking transactions. In reality, they were picked because Hitler needed a focus for national hatred and they became that focus. It could just have easily been Musilm people or African people or Gay people (oh, forgot, Gay people were included in that hatred in Germany).

The similarities I see are:

1. The American Economy is doing poorly.

2. The American Nation is in extreme debt and continues along that path.

3. We are moving from a secular to a non-secular society (people allegedly voted for Bush on the Values issues).

4. We are at war with a nation where we initiated a premptive strike.

5. We are at war with a faceless enemy (terrorists).

6. We are allowing our constitutional rights of others to be completely overidden.

7. We are openly torturing our [enemies] and illegally imprisoning people.

8. We are moving toward focusing on the Muslim as "an enemy", regardless of their position on terrorism.

I am very, very afraid for America.

I hear "Homeland Security" and I think "Secret Police"...

And Sanger is another that comes to mind...

Very provocative, Isis. Thanks for making us stop and think.

That was the stupidest thing I have ever read. I can't believe I actually took the time to read the whole thing.

Conclusions about what the writer was conveying:
1. The Germans were cowards - I have never heard anyone claim such a thing. They were misguided by an evil, ruthless tyrant for sure but cowards? I don't think so. They fought as bravely as we did, fortunately we won.

2. Americans are cowards - Just ask those brave men and women who are fighting as we speak if they are fighting for a nation of cowards. The bravery and determination of the American people is part of what makes this country great and to suggest that we are cowards is idiotic.

3. Hitler didn't kill the Jews, the German people did - Hitler was a madman who ordered his men to kill the Jews. Yes, his men followed his orders but I for one believe that if many of the German people knew what he was doing that they might have risen against him. Killing the Jews was Hitler's obsession and eventually was his ruin.

4. America is just like Germany was and that President Bush is comparable to Hitler - Actually vocalizing bullshit like that is preposterous and you should be ashamed of yourself for printing this article Isis. I have seen people take this point of view and practically every credible democrat that heard it has blasted them for taking such a malicious position. President Bush is a good decent man who is fighting a war against terrorists, not EVERY Muslim. Hitler was an evil madman and had he had his way, would have brutally killed every Jew alive.

You may not like President Bush and frankly I am ok with that. You may openly question his actions and even motives for entering this war and frankly I am ok with that. You may think that the American people are cowards and want to discuss that and frankly I am ok with that. But, to compare President Bush to Hitler is asinine and frankly I am not ok with that in any way, shape or form and will shout it from the highest mountaintop. This thread is pathetic.

I find any comparison of Bush and Hitler offensive and grossly demeaning to the millions of innocent civilian people who were ruthlessly murdered in concentration camps and gas chambers.

I don't think this thread rises to the level of even being off-topic, much less achieving the status of farce.

It is moronic... not even worthy of asking that it be moved to the lunatic fringe forum where leftists fantasize about being liberal with other people's rights, morals and politics.

For anyone to equate Bush to Hitler is to totally misrepresent or undersand both men and their policies, accomplishments and failures.

I agree with Billy here.

Billy, it's not about Bush.

It's about the direction that Isis sees the country heading and I for one agree with him.

The erosion of our constitutional rights and re-interpretation of the consitiution since the wars on Drugs and Terrorism have been declared should be viewed with great trepidation by the American people.

Unfortunately, any criticism of the "Patriots Act", makes one not a patriot. Any criticism of the "War on Terror" makes one a terrorist or supporter of terrorists. This partisan view of issues that are critical to our country has put us at risk of becoming like Germany was during Hitlers reign.

The definition "Coward" was not about ones willingness to fight and die. The definition "Coward" was about a country's unwillingness to look at it's self before it self destructed and murdered 2 million people.

There are many ways to be a coward - not all of them involve refusing to fight for ones country in a war. A country can be cowardly as a whole when they refuse to stop a group of meglomanic people attempting to grotesquely change everything that they stand for (such as those principals held within the U.S. Constitution).

America, as a whole, was cowardly when they imprisoned Japanese Americans in concentration camps. This should not have been allowed to happen but it did. It in no way says that the men and women who fought the Japanese in WWII were cowardly. America was cowardly when they allowed Joe Mcarthy to hold the hearings that he did and it ruined many lives and is a shame we live with and should well remember.

I think that the same thing applies here but the consequences of not standing up for our constitution this time are much more dire and permanent.

I happen to agree with Rose....but that is beside the point. If you all choose to use circular fallacy and strawmen tactics instead of facts to support your points then shame on you. The person who wrote this article actually put forth facts, that is where the likes of you naysayers are lacking. If you have some facts to the contrary then by all means post, but if your only rebuttal is to use slanderous remarks then please go elsewhere as this is a thread for open communication not for slander and "you're a doodie head for posting this article" comments. So cough up the constructive or move on.

I don't think America will move towards ethnic cleansing anytime soon. But I do think those in power in the USA are getting a bit too big for their boots.

It was suggested around the time of the Iraq war that president George Bush wanted to invade Iraq before all the hype began. It was suggested that he planned it in cold blood. Evidence (a memo from him asking Donald Rumsfeld to draft an invasion plan) has arisen which shows this is true.

Now see this from the BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4182365.stm

The guy who gave this info apparently has a track record that means he should be believed. It would seem the US has plans to invade at least one other middle eastern nation.

I am worried for world stability because I see the middle eastern nations as what I call the 'Muslim Block'. They tend to stand together. Saddam you can take as a bad actor in the pack, and the Taliban were 'dangerous radicals'. But how many muslim nations can you write off and then invade before the remaining muslim nations feel vulnerable, clump together, and make a stand?

I think America feels it can continue to pick nations off one at a time, and sadly it's wrong. I worry sometimes about what a world we'll be in when George Bush goes too far.

True, he can't run again but you Americans have just signed his papers for another three years. And I've seen his work in Afghanistan and Iraq. He can do a lot in three years.

These issues are certainly worthy of discussion.



This is where you lose it. To compare the United States with Hitler’s Germany is nothing short of pathetic.


Did you even bother to read the original post Rose?


pfft… Clearly the author was calling Americans “cowards” in the sense that they do not want to fight “face to face”.

Go ahead and attempt to “justify” those words as “constructive”. pfft

There is enough ignorance in these words that there really is no need to describe the devastation and horror that Hitler caused. Eggy said it all and his words are applicable. To say that Hitler did very little is “offensive and grossly demeaning to the millions of innocent civilian people who were ruthlessly murdered in concentration camps and gas chambers.”

I believe that there is a fundamental philosophical difference between the people who support the Patriots Act and those that oppose it.

I oppose it because I personally would rather risk dying in a terrorist attack than give up even one freedom guarnateed to me by the U.S. Constitution. My progeny/loved ones feel the same way and the risk extends to them as well.

I believe this way, more out of concern for future generations, than I do for my own generation. As Dave Berry once so [sarcastically] pointed out in his humor, by the time the sh*t hits the fan - I'll be dead, so who cares?

I know (through experience) that it is a lot easier to lock the barn door than it is to leave it open, let the horse out and then have to hunt it down and put it back in.

I think the same principle holds true for the freedom granted to Americans through our brilliant Governmental System and Constitution drafted over 200 years ago. The more personal rights we lose, me more we will continue to lose, until we have lost them all and recovering them will be next to impossible.

This happened to Germany, Russia, Italy and France and it can also happen to us when we lose the ability to critically acess our own actions as a Nation because we are blinded by an emotion called patriotism (pride can be a sin too).

Our fantastic nation was founded with a system of checks and balances, of which, critical discord is essential.

Yes, it takes courage to go into a foreign country and fight upon the orders of your countrys leader. A lot of courage and I salute that and support it. One can support the brave people who fight a war without supporting the war.

However, it also takes courage to go without a job or take a lesser job because you won't submit to a urine analysis, lie detector test or any other intrusive measure they have come up with because you feel it's unconstitutional no matter what the supreme court ruled.

It takes courage to stand up to authorities and say NO, YOU MAY NOT ENTER MY HOME without a warrant!

It takes courage (and risk), to exercise your first ammendment rights and protest something you feel is wrong.

Yet these are fights that average people fight - every day. It takes courage to see a wrong and to make it right anytime you are going against the grain of popular belief.

The first step to fascism is to end critical discourse though means of propaganda, then through public disapproval and then through imprisonment and even death. It has happened over and over again in this world yet we [humans] as a whole rarely see it coming.

My comments and opinions stem from a genuine concern for my country, it's people, our way of life and our government of future generations.

why?

14 defining aspects of fascism:

1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism. From the prominent displays of flags and bunting to the ubiquitous lapel pins, the fervor to show patriotic nationalism, both on the part of the regime itself and of citizens caught up in its frenzy, was always obvious. Catchy slogans, pride in the military, and demands for unity were common themes in expressing this nationalism. It was usually coupled with a suspicion of things foreign that often bordered on xenophobia.

check


2. Disdain for the importance of human rights. The regimes themselves viewed human rights as of little value and a hindrance to realizing the objectives of the ruling elite. Through clever use of propaganda, the population was brought to accept these human rights abuses by marginalizing, even demonizing, those being targeted. When abuse was egregious, the tactic was to use secrecy, denial, and disinformation.

check


3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause. The most significant common thread among these regimes was the use of scapegoating as a means to divert the people’s attention from other problems, to shift blame for failures, and to channel frustration in controlled directions. The methods of choice—relentless propaganda and disinformation—were usually effective. Often the regimes would incite “spontaneous” acts against the target scapegoats, usually communists, socialists, liberals, Jews, ethnic and racial minorities, traditional national enemies, members of other religions, secularists, homosexuals, and “terrorists.” Active opponents of these regimes were inevitably labeled as terrorists and dealt with accordingly.

check


4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism. Ruling elites always identified closely with the military and the industrial infrastructure that supported it. A disproportionate share of national resources was allocated to the military, even when domestic needs were acute. The military was seen as an expression of nationalism, and was used whenever possible to assert national goals, intimidate other nations, and increase the power and prestige of the ruling elite.

check

5. Rampant sexism. Beyond the simple fact that the political elite and the national culture were male-dominated, these regimes inevitably viewed women as second-class citizens. They were adamantly anti-abortion and also homophobic. These attitudes were usually codified in Draconian laws that enjoyed strong support by the orthodox religion of the country, thus lending the regime cover for its abuses.

checkaroony

6. A controlled mass media. Under some of the regimes, the mass media were under strict direct control and could be relied upon never to stray from the party line. Other regimes exercised more subtle power to ensure media orthodoxy. Methods included the control of licensing and access to resources, economic pressure, appeals to patriotism, and implied threats. The leaders of the mass media were often politically compatible with the power elite. The result was usually success in keeping the general public unaware of the regimes’ excesses.

big check here


7. Obsession with national security. Inevitably, a national security apparatus was under direct control of the ruling elite. It was usually an instrument of oppression, operating in secret and beyond any constraints. Its actions were justified under the rubric of protecting “national security,” and questioning its activities was portrayed as unpatriotic or even treasonous.

check

8. Religion and ruling elite tied together. Unlike communist regimes, the fascist and protofascist regimes were never proclaimed as godless by their opponents. In fact, most of the regimes attached themselves to the predominant religion of the country and chose to portray themselves as militant defenders of that religion. The fact that the ruling elite’s behavior was incompatible with the precepts of the religion was generally swept under the rug. Propaganda kept up the illusion that the ruling elites were defenders of the faith and opponents of the “godless.” A perception was manufactured that opposing the power elite was tantamount to an attack on religion.

double check


9. Power of corporations protected. Although the personal life of ordinary citizens was under strict control, the ability of large corporations to operate in relative freedom was not compromised. The ruling elite saw the corporate structure as a way to not only ensure military production (in developed states), but also as an additional means of social control. Members of the economic elite were often pampered by the political elite to ensure a continued mutuality of interests, especially in the repression of “have-not” citizens.

yup

10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated. Since organized labor was seen as the one power center that could challenge the political hegemony of the ruling elite and its corporate allies, it was inevitably crushed or made powerless. The poor formed an underclass, viewed with suspicion or outright contempt. Under some regimes, being poor was considered akin to a vice.

and -----check

11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts. Intellectuals and the inherent freedom of ideas and expression associated with them were anathema to these regimes. Intellectual and academic freedom were considered subversive to national security and the patriotic ideal. Universities were tightly controlled; politically unreliable faculty harassed or eliminated. Unorthodox ideas or expressions of dissent were strongly attacked, silenced, or crushed. To these regimes, art and literature should serve the national interest or they had no right to exist.

and how

12. Obsession with crime and punishment. Most of these regimes maintained Draconian systems of criminal justice with huge prison populations. The police were often glorified and had almost unchecked power, leading to rampant abuse. “Normal” and political crime were often merged into trumped-up criminal charges and sometimes used against political opponents of the regime. Fear, and hatred, of criminals or “traitors” was often promoted among the population as an excuse for more police power.

big time


13. Rampant cronyism and corruption. Those in business circles and close to the power elite often used their position to enrich themselves. This corruption worked both ways; the power elite would receive financial gifts and property from the economic elite, who in turn would gain the benefit of government favoritism. Members of the power elite were in a position to obtain vast wealth from other sources as well: for example, by stealing national resources. With the national security apparatus under control and the media muzzled, this corruption was largely unconstrained and not well understood by the general population.

check

14. Fraudulent elections. Elections in the form of plebiscites or public opinion polls were usually bogus. When actual elections with candidates were held, they would usually be perverted by the power elite to get the desired result. Common methods included maintaining control of the election machinery, intimidating and disenfranchising opposition voters, destroying or disallowing legal votes, and, as a last resort, turning to a judiciary beholden to the power elite.

wow --check

Nice thread hijack Kendra… irrelevant and untrue… Maybe you should start your own "fascist" thread to discuss it.

Like George Bush? Don't confuse that with "denial" Don't confuse good sense with cowardliness. As our troops follow Bush's orders.

OK, let's cut to the chase: Those who are pro-Bush are one or more of:
1) War mongers
2) Want to cram their religious beliefs down the throats of others.
3) Stupid

But since none of these are popular concept they are not stated, instead a lot of flag waving and wrapping is employed.

How is this a hijack, Billy? The fact that the Bush administration has turned the United States into a facist state is very relevant to the discussion at hand.

If you think that's untrue --kindly attempt to refute any of the 14 points I outlined.

Feel free to start a fascist thread and I will be happy to. This one disgusts me and I will no longer participate in keeping it alive.

Comparing George Bush to Hitler is very insulting...to Hitler.

Fascism:

Is an economic system geared to the needs, not of the people, but of the wealthy elite.

It is a republican form of government

It features extreme forms of nationalism.

While Nazism is a form of fascism, fascism is not Nazism.

Fascism creates "enemies of the fatherland" in order to gain public support. These "enemies" usually include liberals, socialists, trade unionists, and conspicuous minority groups.

Fascism is not conservative, although it often claims to be traditional.

Fascism will replace a free press with propaganda.

From http://www.zeppscommentaries.com/Politics/fascism.htm

Good point. However, comparing the average American citizen of today to the average German citizen of the thirties is certainly hitting the mark.

Uh huh... and the lunatic fringe speaks out again... weaving misinterpretations and conspriacies that would make even fiction writers cringe in fear off being associated with such drivel.

Why wasn't this posted over in the lunatic forum anyway? The original (and subsequent supporting posts) certainly are left of reality and very liberal in any claim at appearing to represent intelligent thought.

Well said Bran and Kendra. I agree.