Where do we go from here? Deficits, wars and a world on the edge

Nice try, Chip-but you failed to mention Islamic anything in your post. Instead you singled out Christians for your derision as you often do.

No, what I tired to do was make people realize that I wasn't singling out mainstream Christians by specifically stating it because I knew someone like you would get their persecution complex panties in a bunch.

*double checks.... Ayup, still singling out Christianity. We're such barbarians after all what with our soup kitchens and homeless shelters. What's next on your hit list? The Jews perhaps? I mean after all, the Israelis are waging a savage war of self defense against the peace loving Palestinians who just want the freedom to blow up school busses, kindergartens, cafes...

But those Islamic jihadists-saints I tell ya! I hear nary a disparaging word from the Left about them-and why should they? They are just civilian targeting freedom fighters after all. It wouldn't be PC to speak ill of such people.


-Kiamat Dusk
Radically opposed to the murder of school children

ok here it is, one of my alltime favorite articles:

http://www.memphisflyer.com/MFSearch/full_results.asp?xt_from=2&aID=2277

Kiamat, please put down the GOP talking points. The people who flew planes into the WTC were making a statement protesting the US's involvement and presence in the Middle East, controlling strategic oil reserves, and it's continuing support for Israel in the Palistinean conflict. PERIOD. They want the INFIDEL out of their lands! They didn't do it because they hate freedom and free people as the Administration would have us all believe. They didn't do it because our women vote, or because we have free public school education. They didn't do it because most of the US is Christian (although I'm sure that helped, with some of the Fundamentalist nutjobs that want eternal jihad). So what do we do??? We get even MORE involved! Yea good call, genius.

Read a transcript of Osama Bin Laden's speeches sometime. That's EXACTLY what HE HIMSELF says, not what our government insists on telling We the People. Here's a link to his speeches:

http://www.perfect.co.uk/2004/05/the-speeches-of-osama-bin-laden

how about this qoute, just a small sample:


source:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,845725,00.html

hrmmmmmm sound familiar??? And it goes on and on and on.

Well then consider Aghanistan and Iraq to be our protest for the murder of 3000 people and the destruction of two very expensive buildings and 4 expensive airplanes. I wonder what we'll do in protest for Germany, France, and Russia betraying us in the UN because they were on the take from Saddam?



Right! What we *should* have done is buried our dead, put up a nice park where the WTC used to be, apologize profusely to the Middle East, stop importing Middle Eastern oil, stop sending BILLIONS of dollars in aid to the Middle East, convert to Islam, give up democracy for an Islamic theocracy...

Blah, blah, blah. All I'm hearing from you is "We had it coming!" "We got just what we deserved!"

I don't agree. But if that is the way you feel, it'd be nice if you and like minded individuals could trade places with the people in those planes, or the pentagon, or the WTC. One apologist for one person who didn't think they deserved to die.



Osama bin Laden. Yeah, there's the paradigm of truth. Here's a bin Laden quote for ya:
"The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies--civilians and military--is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it..."

Those are your loved ones he's talking about. You may think they deserve to die, but luckily for them, there are people like me who feel otherwise.

-Kiamat Dusk

But the tens of thousands of people we've now killed in the middle east, all of whom were someone's loved one... they deserved to die? You're a sick puppy.

1. Yes, some of them did.
2. We didn't kill all of them. Once again terrorists blowing up people waiting to join the Iraqi police/military or people waiting to vote, or people just minding their own business get a free pass from you, Chip.
3. I see you, too are a 9/11 apologist, I should have known.
4. PS: I recall agreeing with you on the 2nd Ammendment thing in a different thread. In that particular reference, the "you" was a general you directed at Liberals vice directed at "you" specifically.

-Kiamat Dusk

LOL I'm sure Kiamat hasn't read all those speeches, and just made up his mind based on what our government SAYS Osama is like, rather than reading the man's own words.

But then again, on the same note,

http://www.bushquotes.com/

Yea, Bush is soooo much clearer LOL


No, what we should have been doing for a LONG TIME BACK is minding our own goddamn business when it comes to foreign governments, getting the hell out of the Middle East, letting them kill eachother instead of us, and developing a better energy supply instead of worrying about a nonrenewable resource like OIL.

I don't see how it's up to the USA to be the policeman of the world, or spread democracy to countries that don't have it. They will find their own way sooner or later. Starting a preemptive war or 3 certainly isn't gonna push things any closer to that, and at the expense of countless lives and tax dollars. Let's see how far Bush pushes North Korea, ehh? Something tells me that if he decides to "preemptive strike" their asses, we would be missing a major city soon after in a cloud of radioactive debris. But hey, it was all worth it right???

And YES, I do believe that sooner or later America WOULD be attacked like it was, because of it's interventionist, expansionist, and butt-inski foreign policies since the last world war. I can't believe something as big as 9/11 hasn't happened sooner. That being said, it certainly DOES NOT mean I condone such acts EVER, no matter who is perpetrating them, INCLUDING our own government, for any reason.

I don't apologize for the mistakes of our government. But I do the only thing I can do to try to get people like the Bush Administration out of power.... VOTE.

And as far as I'm concerned, nobody on this earth DESERVES to die, including those poor souls on the planes, or the poor souls on the ground in Falluja caught in the crossfire, or the poor starving millions in the rest of the world either. 5-6 BILLION US dollars a MONTH is being spent on this "war". That's a lot of friggin cheeseburgers, papi! I guess killing off a few more insurgents is really worth it, rather than doing some ACTUAL good for our fellow human beings.



I never said it's THE TRUTH, but it IS what the man has said. If he is telling his people to go out and kill Americans, aren't you in the least bit interested in WHY he is telling them to do this? In his OWN perspective? Yanno the whole "put yourself in another man's shoes" thing? Desparate people sometimes do desparate things.

WAR=TERROR

"Democrats and Republicans both agree, Cheney is a Dick." - someone said this

PEACE!

Artillo

Top ten dictator list:

1. Kim Jong-il (North Korea)
2. King Fahd and Prince Abdullah (Saudi Arabia)
3. Saddam Hussein (thanks to Bush, we shouldn-t mention of what country he is the leader)
4. Charles Taylor (Liberia)
5. Than Shwe (former Burma, now Myanmar)
6. Teodoro Obiang Nguema (Equatorial Guinea)
7. Saparmurat Niyazov (Turkmenistan)
8. Muammar Gaddafi (Libya)
9. Fidel Castro (Cuba)
10. Alexander Lukashenko (Belarus)

Here we go. Yes Saddam is on the list but he is one below our beloved Prince Abdullah. See these wars have nothing to do with democracy or unseating dictators for the good of the people. These wars are about empire building, oil and control. The US loves dictators so long as they are our friends and acting in accordance with our plans. This war is about a pipeline and about getting some bases built in a strategic location. Muammar is still a vicious dictator, likely even more so than he was without wmd's because now nobody gives a flip about his country.

There is no democracy in Afghanistan. There is no democracy in Iraq. Democracy is not something to be forced upon a nation by carpet bombs. We cannot change the minds of the men and women who have lived in these countries without first giving them something to live for. A bombed out house and dead family members isn't exactly a motivating force for change.

The Taliban still controls Afghanistan. They also still control the opium trade which is booming in Afghanistan. Libya is still controlled by a cruel and ruthless dictator and North Korea is still starving. Nothing in this world has changed other than the propoganda spewing from the mouths of the officials.

actually that's last years list, they just updated it. And it's kinda scary if your'e using Parade Magazine as a source, to be honest.

This one's better

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm

Actually I got that from Pravda magazine. The list hasn't changed much though and there is nothing wrong with using David Wallechinsky as a source on a forum. Granted I wouldn't likely use him in a publishable peice but sue me.

Thanks...great site now I don't have to search when looking for how many were killed during the Mongol conquest . Humans are nasty beasts though are we not?

Kiamat: Artillo, do you believe that we should have gotten involved in WWII?


Kiamat: I see, but Hitler was exterminating the Jews.


Kiamat: Yeah, but he was killing millions.


Kiamat: The US recently sent ships to Indonesia to help with humanitarian relief efforts there after the tsunami letf hundreds of thousands dead and millions more homeless. How do you feel about that? Do you think we were right in doing so?



Kiamat Dusk: What exactly is it that you're opposed to here? Is it the hundreds of millions of dollars we spent in aid for these people?



Kiamat: So how exactly are we supposed to do "some ACTUAL good for our fellow human beings" with such an isolationist attitude?





Kiamat: Well, thank you for your candor, Artillo.

-Kiamat Dusk
Super-journalist

*snicker*

Well, we got ATTACKED.

And we attacked Japan which was allied with Germany. Incidentally .. Japan attacked US!

Of course, we could have gone over and attacked, say, Thailand instead --

What? They're both Asian, right?

Wow, Kiamat has a sense of humor after all! LOL nice deflection from having an actual discussion, BTW.

I swear that I saw that interview on Fox News.

Also, both Japan and Germany declared war on the United States.

-And if you believed they were-would you support them?



-And where exactly is this American Empire? Lessee..won a war against the Germans and the Japanese-but they aren't American territories...we gave the Phillipines back their independence...

War for oil you say? I note we're not occupying Kuwait. Moreover, if we were going to go to war for oil, why go half way around the world when we could just jaunt down to Venezuela and add them and their rich oil fields to the "Empire"?



Do you even watch the news? While you were under your rock, elections were held in BOTH countries which were certified by your precious UN, btw. Also, the Taliban vehemently OPPOSED the growing of opium while they were in power. So if the Taliban are still in charge, the opposite would be true, no?

What's simply going on here is your unwavering desire to paint Bush in a negative light even if it means ignoring the truth.

-Kiamat Dusk

Oh, poppycock.

Wow, another Liberal found hiding under a rock! Who knew? Let me give you an update-WE WERE ATTACKED AGAIN! Yeah, on September 11, 2001 to be exact. And so we asked nicely for the Taliban to hand over bin Laden and they didn't so we attacked them because they were ALLIED with him. Oh, and Saddam Hussein was allied with bin Laden, too-(but had NOTHING to do with 9/11) so according to your own logic, everything we've done has been just. Thank you for agreeing!

-Kiamat Dusk
Snatching the rose colored glasses off the face of the Left

1. Yes, some of them did.

Care to put a percentage on that? How much "collateral damage" is acceptable to you?

2. We didn't kill all of them. Once again terrorists blowing up people waiting to join the Iraqi police/military or people waiting to vote, or people just minding their own business get a free pass from you, Chip.

Uh, somehow I think the "shock and awe" carpet bombing took out a hell of a lot more innocent people that the car bombers have so far... and why are they car bombing again? Oh that's right... because we invaded their country!

3. I see you, too are a 9/11 apologist, I should have known.

I'm so sick of hearing this kind of bullshit. It's more of the old "you either buy the party line in its entirety or you're with the terrorists!" I'll give you more credit than you may be due and assume that you're not actually that simple minded.

4. PS: I recall agreeing with you on the 2nd Ammendment thing in a different thread. In that particular reference, the "you" was a general you directed at Liberals vice directed at "you" specifically.

Gee, thanks for cutting a 9/11 apologist some slack

"But the administration has continued to link Saddam Hussein, a man Bin Laden has called "an apostate, an infidel and a traitor to Islam", with al-Qa'ida. In his State of the Union address last week, President Bush said he had new evidence of the link: "Evidence from intelligence sources, secret communications and statements by people now in custody, reveal that Saddam aids and protects terrorists, including members of al-Qa'ida." Nothing was produced to support the assertion."
SOURCE:
http://www.president-bush.com/osamabinhussein.html

http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/021303A.htm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5223932/

And from RUMSFELD himself:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3715396.stm


shall we continue???

ant STILL they are blinded to the truth. Osama and Saddam were friggin enemies you ** edited to remove impending dirty word **!

*standing ovation*