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WTF Fox News

Mac Beach
Linux/OS X User
Join date: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 458
01-06-2005 11:31
From: Hank Ramos
Sorry dude. I consider myself to be conservative in many ways and liberal in many others. And the "conservatives" as we have today in the USA are not "conservative". They are "neo-conservative", which I would define as puritanical, religious zealots bent upon forcing their will upon their country and the world.

"Liberal News" is not liberal versus conservative. When you call something "Liberal" you mean non-narrow minded. What neo-cons want, and what Fox delivers, is a narrow-view on the world, using fear as their vehicle.

You're free to use the words that way if you wish, but that's not what they mean. The original description of the political spectrum was a line running from the left where the liberals are, to the right were the conservatives are (hence the terms left-wing, right-wing and variations). The most important issue that distinguished one from the other was the relationship between the individual and the King, or more practically, the King and all the land barons he appointed. The more liberal you were, the more independent you thought ordinary citizens should be from the rule of the King. By that definition we are all, for the most part liberals. In America, since there was no King, the government was substituted for the King, and our founding fathers wanted a fairly week Federal Government, so they would be classified as liberals too. "Narrow mindedness" had nor has anything to do with it.

Things got muddled in the 20th century, when people calling themselves liberals began focusing on big business as the substitute for the King when it came to individual freedoms. This substitution wasn't too significant at first as the Federal Government here in the US was still rather small. That has changed though and the problem that many liberals have is that we now have an almost all-powerful federal government as though the political spectrum has doubled back on itself. Some people resort to using the term "classical liberal" to indicate a desire for maximum personal freedoms.

I'd have no problem with calling myself a classical liberal. I think big unchecked government is bad, I think big unchecked business is bad, and they are both bad for exactly the same reasons. For many people, the balance of small federal government and many small businesses (as opposed to monopolies) was reached around the turn of the last century. Since we would like to see things "go back" in that direction the term conservative is "good enough" for everyday use.

Unfortunately the terms have been worn out to the extent where you really have to describe your positions on things rather than using a handy label.

I left religion out of the discussion for the following reason. If you favor small government and oppose large monopoly business there is no way to force particular religious beliefs on the individual. You can invent your own spectrum of freedoms for religion, sexuality, drug use, or whatever if you want, and in fact, the relative weakness these days of the Democrat party can be explained by the fact that it is an amalgam of single issue voting blocks each of whom care only about freedoms in a particular area and are indifferent to, or in some cases feel just the opposite regarding another area.

I like to simplify and have freedoms across the board rather than run around with a checklist of what freedoms I am supposed to support this week. I think many people who call themselves conservatives feel the same way. Some who call themselves liberals feel that way too. Like I said, the terms aren't very useful any more.

For some interesting ideas on the growth of the federal government I recommend the following:

http://mwhodges.home.att.net
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Riffey4 DeGroot
Registered User
Join date: 7 Jul 2004
Posts: 180
01-06-2005 12:01
Seems that I have touched a sensitive subject here...

I'm still looking for the original Fox video. If someone has a link, please post it.
The report I saw on dutch national television is here: http://www.rtl.nl/actueel/rtlnieuws/video/ then look for "Fox TV kraakt Nederland" in "4 Januari" (sorry, couldn't get a direct link to the video)

I don't dislike different points of view on delicate topics. We have left and right winged media here too. And they all stress the points they like, and "forget" to mention facts they don't like that much. But don't lie. Sooner or later people will know that you are lying.

If this is one of the bigger news stations in the US, and if there are people who believe stuff like this... and if these people are allowed to vote....

This is only a small, unimportant issue. I don't think anyone in the US actually cares whether or not babies are being killed in a small hospital in a small college town in a small European country.
But there are bigger, more important issues. And if they twist the truth about more important like they did on this item, that scares the hell out of me....

If you lie about your friends, they won't be your friends much longer.
Korg Stygian
Curmudgeon Extraordinaire
Join date: 3 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,105
01-06-2005 13:07
From: Riffey4 DeGroot
If you lie about your friends, they won't be your friends much longer.

What I hope will be my final post on this...

Riffey4, after listening "through" my imperfect knowledge of German to the Dutch newsreport you pointed us to, it sounds to me like the Dutch station was reporting on a Fox report that I would not expect most Dutch people to like. So, we still have not heard the original Fox report... merely excerpts from it intermixed with at least one non-Fox sound bite (sounded like Charlie Gibson from Good Morning America at one point).

Yes there is an obvious bias - I don't necessarily think it is an unfair one. Follow this logic and it may lessen the sting of "the insult".

1. Premise: All human life is valuable.
2. Premise: All human life is equally valuable.
3. Conclusion1: Taking human life deliberately is an act of "superiority" in that the "killer" is saying "You are not valuable enough to live".

4. Premise: Premise1 is religious-based.
5. Premise: Premise2 is a natural extension of liberal Western philosophy - which is steeped in Christian morality.
6. Conclusion2: Believing in Conclusion1 is the thing good Christians should do.

Change focus for a moment...
7. Premise: Fox News is a network requiring a target audience.
8. Premise: The Christina Right in the US feels that their value system is not supported/constantly under attack by non-Fox(liberal) network news broadcasts.
9. Premise: Networks are inthe business of making money for share/stockholders.
10. Conclusion3: Fox targets the Christian Right with its slant on all stories.

The "summary"
11. Premise: In light of Conclusion1, a refernce to Nazis can lead to an appearance of "acting superior" in view of most people's perception of the Third Reich as has been painted by Western educators since the end of WW2.
12. Premise: There WERE Nazi-collaborators in the Netherlands during WW2.
13. Premise: a. Most American citizens' knowledge of the Netherlands IS that of the things that are different from the US --- a number of which are commercially based (and we've been educated via advertising - ex., tulips sales) and/or children's stories (ex., Little Boy finger in the dike stories).
........b. In addition to 13a., American visitors to the Netherlands have some knowledge of the "tourist" attractions - the red light districts, the legalized marijuana, and the liberal sexual lifestyle/standards in comparison to the Average American's view of "middle America".
14. Premise: Conclusion 1 + Conclusion 2 + Conclusion 3 is why Fox would paint any story of killing babies as a negative/counter to "middle American citizen's values".

That is how I see/heard the report you linked to.... it assaults the citizens of your country in exactly the opposite direction from the Fox news report... "They are saying we are horrible... that our values are wrong." Of course, with no real knowledge of Dutch, I only caught certain words which were similar to German in sound/meaning, and I could only absolutely understand the English snippets in the piece.

Personally, I would ignore it and figure that "it's one person's opinion. And I know they are wrong."

But that's just me.

Edited to add: And that Fox news report is not the US government or the American people as a whole speaking about the Netherlands. It's a for-profit corporation trying to make money by appealing to a core audience in a specific manner to have that audience want to come back for more "real soon now."
Paris Cellardoor
Jefa del Cartel
Join date: 28 Dec 2003
Posts: 867
01-06-2005 14:44
Jebus Korg....STFU already. ;)
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Hiro Pendragon
bye bye f0rums!
Join date: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,905
01-07-2005 03:21
I'm listening to Fox News right now.

"Fox and Friends in the morning"

They have this guest on who, and I am not exagerrating, said, "I don't think what happened in the Iraq prisons is torture because there was no body mutilations. It's an unconventional war and we need to do anything necessary to stop terrorism"

This was a woman, by the way.

The Fox morning team? Didn't question her comments at all.

FOX AND FRIENDS: NOW APPROVING OF TORTURE IN IRAQ!!!! WOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

Congrats! Apparently the Army military police considers it torture, but a bunch of stupid wanna-be journalists who've never seen combat or prison don't think it's torture.
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Hiro Pendragon
bye bye f0rums!
Join date: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,905
01-07-2005 03:25
Angela McGlowan - a black woman, "news strategist".

Aaaand.... a simple Google search shows she works for Fox News.

WOO!!!! Fox News now officially supports torture! CONGRATS!

I'm seriously considering calling the FCC on this one.
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Selador Cellardoor
Registered User
Join date: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,082
01-07-2005 03:42
Alexa,

<<What you write here is utter crap.>>

Alexa! :eek:

Mind you, I agree with you, and would probably have put it more strongly than you did.
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Rose Karuna
Lizard Doctor
Join date: 5 Jun 2004
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01-07-2005 07:11
From: Hiro Pendragon
Angela McGlowan - a black woman, "news strategist".

Aaaand.... a simple Google search shows she works for Fox News.

WOO!!!! Fox News now officially supports torture! CONGRATS!

I'm seriously considering calling the FCC on this one.


I agree Hiro, we should complain to the FCC. What they are attempting to do is to put enough spin on the issue to gather public approval of torture. This is both disgusting and despicable. I think that a group like "moveon.org" should garner their base to complain about issues like this to the FCC in the same manner that the Florida Family Association and other similar groups got their constituents to complain about Janet Jacksons breast.

I also take exception to Fox News purporting to be "Fair and Balanced" and think that this too should be reported to the FCC. Though proving that they are not fair and balanced is subjective and more difficult to define - though certaintly not impossible. It's just a matter of pointing out to someone that there is an Elephant standing in the living room.
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Icon Serpentine
punk in drublic
Join date: 13 Nov 2003
Posts: 858
01-07-2005 08:53
From: Alexa Hope

What you write here is utter crap.

If you had been alive at that time (and i was born at the end of WWII) you would be in no doubt that they were evil. Forget the sappy movies that have been made about the war, there are people alive who still have the Nazi numbers tattoo'd on their arms. If the people in the camps weren't gassed to death then they were starved to death. I have seen RL film of emaciated dead bodies piled into mountains. If this is not the work of evil then I don't know what is.

I have a friend who was a refugee. Every single member of her family died in the camp. Tell her that Nazi's being evil is just an opinion.

Alexa


A very fair viewpoint and one I'm sure many share.

However, the judge of evil is a personal one.

I never menat to discount those who suffered in those times, but I also never discount those who involved themselves in their country and supported or participated in the Nazi regime out of fear. Let us not forget that innocent Germans were also executed and many only supported the Third Reich for fear of the SS showing up at their doors with charges of heresay against the state.

I suppose the ultimate test of anyone's humanity would be their choice in acting upon their judgements.

Suppose a man you've never spoken to kills a relative of yours for reasons unbeknowest to you. You have the opportunity to kill him before he gets away.

What do you do?

If you were in a concentration camp and had the opportunity to shoot the Nazi soldier in the face for giving you the tattoo, would you? What if you found out later he was only there because his wife was in prison for being a dissenter? What if you knew this just before you pulled the trigger... would you still shoot him?
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