Gaming the Dwell System - Redux

sorry maxx. we won't play in your thread any more. the answer to your question is NO, it's obviously not wrong. we don't need the lindens to respond. their actions speak for themselves. as i said earlier in aswer to your third question:

3) yes, it is. ll are not idiots. they must keep tabs on the system, especially the projects that the company pays usd to support every month. so the behaviour is de facto condoned unless they say otherwise. now put yourself in their shoes. would you say otherwise? would you say anything?

Yes. Guilty of having a big brain.

I dont see anything wrong with your method of housing people for free. I dont see it as gearerd towards dwell at all.

If I had 10 apts, and two people weren't using them at all, then I would like to be able to give them up to others that would. Plain and simple.

Ok. Forgive my reply that comes before I have finished reading everything. Though if you know me, you know I'll get through the various threads and such that touch on this subject. I'm such a forum junkie. *blush* hehe..

Ok.

Well, maybe my response comes as a shock. I don't know. But let me run this down the way I feel it is in my mind. First off, the dwell awards *are* a competition. So it does not surprise me that people would find various ways to "game" the system. That is now though. And with our responses about it, if LL disagrees with the "cheats", they *will* fix the system. Right now, competions are a huge way to provide entertainment for SL. LL is so busy with Tech crap right now, that I seriously believe content is truely in our hands. Phillip has already stated that they are trying to find other ways to reward those in world.



From chat log found here:
/3/c0/23939/1.html

Honestly right now, LL is trying to help SL thrive. And yes it sucks in some areas for the artists, builders, event creators, mentors, and so many more but I honestly believe that a middle ground is being sought. Do NOT stop bringing up threads like these. Hell, I was raised to question authority. It is a good thing and keeps the creators on their toes. Right now, LL is faced with people yelling at them to fix this or that bug, do this or that feature, kill this or that current item. I seriously think LL had NO IDEA how popular SL was going to become. The fact that it is 18+ should have clued them that they were going to fill a void. But still. I think their heart is in the right place. There are people screaming for new items, while at the same time people screaming for nothing new till all old stuff is fixed. I personally say scream away. LL needs to hear this stuff.

My true belief is that SL will one day mimic the RL world. Before you moan that though, think of what our RL has to offer. We may work our jobs to pay our bills, eat, and have a home of sorts. But what is it that the human being lives for? We live for love, for art, for music, for the imagination and where it will take us. The dollars earned in SL are a means to an end. There is no reason the two cannot exist in one world. But it *will* take us, as well as Linden Lab to see this come to pass. They can no more do this without us, than we can do it without them.

Ok. Sorry Maxx, I know this was not a thread about what is wrong with the current system per say. But the gaming of it DOES go along with the current system. When the current system is fixed, the gaming of it will go along with that. I personally I agree with you that the tactics are morally/socially wrong if not "game" wrong.

Both my ego and conscience demand I make a serious entry to both show how smart I really am and because I like Maxx, and hope he'll accept this as an apology. This post is also based on one vector of discussion that I seem to be alone in believing: Philip has no idea how to use this technology. So, working from there...

When a Linden sits down to look at Second Life, all they see/think is, "Oooh, socializing!" When a Linden talks about a developer, they mean someone who runs a supernode, a place where everyone goes. When the Lindens give us a feature, XML-RPC, custom animations, etc.; those features are for socializing. When a Linden thinks about the future of Second Life, they think, "What can we offer to make the Internet a great place to communicate."

This sounds good if you look at Second Life by itself. However, it's a very narrow view of the Internet, society, and communications. Now, getting back to what you're talking about.

The Lindens like things like Club Elite because it's a supernode by way of bandwidth. New people are always going there, thus increasing its connections and making it an even more super-supernode. What they miss with SL and, Club Elite by extension, is that people form their own networks. They don't need a newbie-grabbing club. The world doesn't need dwell to prove any one place or person is popular. However, the Lindens think they do. They think you need big places to grab people.

They think the "metaverse" needs Second Life as a central land mass. Poll Linden Lab and they probably think John Conner destroying the Skynet core was a brilliant plot device.

What Linden misses is what the blog, the wiki, IRC, AOL, and the web get: give people a tool, even a crude tool, and they'll use it in ways a room full of engineers could never dream of doing.

My favorite example today is the way I've finally met people playing "City of Heroes." There are certain powers that let you teleport people around. Well, a group of people on one of the servers started the Taxibots. Yellow, checkered heroes who would teleport people to important locations, out of dangher, etc. Up until I created a Taxibot, I'd not met anyone beyond the one-night team-up. Now, though, by way of creating a subgenre of heroes in the game, I've met people, teamed with people, etc.

(The urge to say that Taxibots and Club Elite do the same thing is there, I admit. However, I think the difference is that Club Elite pulls people to it; Taxibots exist and attract people of similar interests. Both are "clubs" so to speak, but one is a centralized organization and the other is a scale-free, come as you are deal.)

So, getting back to your questions and addressing my supernode theory: the Lindens know, they care, and they like it. To them, it's a Good Thing when people use dance scripts to move in a drone-like fashion, hang out at clubs, and even use programs to do so; because to them that's socializing! Lindens don't understand that networking isn't just meeting people, networking is forming connections of value that stay valuable.

If they understood that, they'd sell SL as a shrinkwrapped package to networks of people that already exist. They wouldn't feel it was their responsibility maintain the infrastructure, just offer the software.

Jarod, thanks for the cogent summary of why clubs and social devices are sought by Linden Lab overall, but it misses my main point.

This wasn't about clubs specifically, just the devices and admissions of dwell system abuse. I'm convinced at this point, seeing how the first thread that got derailed by personal attacks was locked by a Linden, that they are aware but choose not to comment about this.

So we're back to where we started, and it seems I have a lot more work to do - exposing dwell for what it is.

Thus ends the first chapter in the Broken Book of Dwell.

Dwellnor be praised.

This wasn't about clubs specifically, just the devices and admissions of dwell system abuse.

Because they don't see it as abuse. Every other MMOG in the world has a list of things that are abuses:

1. Selling in-world items for real money.
2. Selling accounts for money.
3. Using bots to power-level.

I know that Linden Lab encourages the first. I know they turn a blind eye to the second. Which leads me to believe that they either encourage or ignore the third.

I don't think my post missed your point, which I grokked as asking why they ignore "abuse" of dwell. My answer is that, in the view of Lindens, it's not abuse. It's a novel way of playing the game.

To the Linden's dwell isn't broken, and I don't think you'll ever convince them otherwise.

On a more personal note, I spent six months earlier this year arguing my points about Second Life and every one of them was ignored or insulted. I especially think back fondly to when Hamlet brushed off my questions about how to handle the potential influx of TSO-like greifers (you know, people who wait at greeting areas to abscond with newbies). They're not going to change anything, Maxx. If you want to keep trying, more power too you. However, in the cyloptic world of Philip, the blind men are kings.

This is very interesting what you are doing. Is this script to measure dwell somehow available? I'd love to be able give newbies a break by providing an alternative to paying rent in L$

While I think Jarod's post is a bit cynical in some regards, I have to admit it contains some valid points. The only comment we have been able to receive on this issue is Jeska Linden swooping in and closing a thread. Never mind responding to the substance of the thread, or that the lack of response on such sensitive issues is often what causes a thread to devolve into hell. The issue of gaming the dwell system, the only metric that seems to hold value to Linden Lab in SL, is a fair, completely valid question to ask, and to expect a comprehensive answer to. More specifically:

- Do the use of anti-idle objects (essentially bots) have any real effect on dwell? Everyone speculates on it, but we are not privvy to every internal calculation - and if they can't even get dwell right on many days, I am curious as to how this can have no effect whatsoever. I can think of very specific scenarios where it would skew the results. I am in SL for awhile, I go to various places, and get ready to sign off - I've been on for an hour or two, visited several places. I then go to a club before signoff, park myself there, and show as being there for 8 hours. That skews the results. I was really only "there" for 15 minutes, but it now appears the vast majority of my time was spent at the club.

- There are several members known to far exceed the 5 account limit, since those with more alts were grandfathered in. Specifically, a club owner is known to have upwards of 40-50 accounts. Are there any mechanisms in place to invalidate dwell from short bursts of signins by alt accounts?

if the answer to either question is there aren't mechanisms in place to address these issues, it throws the whole system of dwell, and its corresponding USD developer incentive awards into major question.

Silence is an answer in and of itself - it shows that you tacitly approve of these practices.

this is my point as well. asking the question over and again won't get anyone's attention maxx. if you want a revolution, you'll have to part the curtain of subtlety and openly demand that ll post a clear definition of game abuses and then enforce those rules without prejudice. supporters will gather, riots will ensue, and the forums will be reorganized.

in the end though, i doubt you're going to convince ll to redefine the term "developer." IF they block the kinds of "abuses" that are occuring now, they'll simply find another way to reward the people who are recruiting and retaining the most users. that is success.

people are currently ragging a "developer" for claiming that his club is a primary reason that second life is still around. i think we should be more concerned about the fact that he's justified in saying that according to ll's current reward system.

OMG, this thread, like sooooo sucks... I was happy today when I came on, and all the whining and drhama threads were dropping to the bottom of the page. It looked like today was going to be a day of clown shoes and trivial converstations. Instead the boxing gloves are on again, and to boot, an issue that has been well discussed is getting beaten some more with the same old dead salmon.

I pitty that fish you know. It probably would have committed suicide as a young fry if it knew it was going to aid the beating of such a thread. Now I'm going to go and find some create way to bash my head in, so I can avoid the temptation of reading such a drawn out thread... Hmm, toon-town would have such a great solution to that, hmm, the trusty old anvil...

Peace out.

Usually posting to a thread continues its visibility.

And with that - I'm done with this, until my dwell experiments are concluded, I guess.

Thanks for the comments.

Nooooo! You weren't supposed to respond so quickly! I haven't finished beating my head into this ever-usefull anvil at my desk, DOH!

Having said how I handle dwell on my property, and made sure that most people (everyone who's commented on it so far) don't think I'm doing anything blatantly wrong... I want to give my views on dwell and the developer awards.

But first, a touch more background on me. I have only two objects for sale in the world, and they bring in far less each week than my stippened gives me. Both my properties are quite often on the Popular Places list due to high dwell, Celadon mostly, since it has rides, games, and attractions and not just the apartment building. The daily L$ dwell bonuses from both total even less than my pitiful sales recipts. It is the Developer Award program that makes all that I do worthwhile for me. I've been on the DI list almost continuously since its inception. I've only ever held three events in my entire year+ here on SL. I don't hold parties or do a lot of socialization. I've been on the DI list because of the content I've been creating. Never has my cut of the DI awards payed for my entire land tier however. It's just not that much money. Only with a boost from selling some of my L$ can I (usually) defrey the cost of this hobby of mine.

Okay, that's me... Now on to how I see dwell and the DI program.

Daily dwell L$ bonuses suck. I've never seen mine get over L$250, and for the last few months they've been hovering around L$120 or so. I make more than that from the two objects I sell. If that was all dwell did, I'd pretty much ignore it.

Developer Incentives... It is an incentive, something to make us do something. That "something" is provide content to entertain the masses. It's SL's core principle that, once given the environment, WE would make the world what it is: fun. The DI program is there to encourage that. Yes, as many people have said (shouted, at times) there are other things that could be encouraged in other ways, but that's a view that only supports the DI program. Expand it.

Now should a runner be disqualified form a race because he "tried too hard to win"? No. That's the whole point of the race, prize or no. Should they be penalized if they trip other runners, use illegal performance enhancing drugs, or hack the matrix and fly across the finish line? Yes. But someone on the sidelines doing the same things should be penalized too, no? It's the act of doing something wrong in the persuit of the prize that is wrong, not the race or the prize itself. It's a separate issue and should be treated as such.

Now I have a lot of fun running this race. I derive enjoyment from creating fun things for other residents of SL to do. It's the prize that lets me do this for a "second living" as it were. Without it, I'd have to either stop or spend more time creating "products" and marketing and organizing events. I don't know if I'd have enough fun doing all that. I'd give it a try if the race was canceled, of course.

But I'd rather stay in the running.

If someone is doing unethical things, shun them. Boycott. Protest. If someone is violating the ToS, report them. Tell a Linden.

"The Devil made me do it" is not a valid defense. No more than "dwell made him do it" is a reason to make dwell into the devil...

Thank you for such an honest, intelligent post, Tiger. So much attention is focused on the evils of dwell, the developer incentive unfairness, etc..., and that is not the issue here at all. Those who achieve awards that Linden Lab is offering honestly deserve them without question, even if some do not like the focus on dwell and the dubious nature of some of the winners. The issue at hand is what lengths are some places going to in order to maintain that award and their presence on popular place lists. Second Life deserves a level playing field, whether it is auctions, dwell, or anything else, and it is up to all of us as a community to demand that the highest of standards are met, and enforced.

I am curious by the way why Robin can take the time to edit this thread, and Jeska to edit the previous thread, but not take the time to respond to a question that keeps being asked.

I'm just a newbie to SL, so I'm not privy to the specifics of dwell, but I should like to make a few points on the fundamentals of the matter:

If you offer a reward, some people will attempt to get it. Some of those people will attempt to get it 'hardcore' - they play to win. Putting more rules on the reward will only slow them down - there will always be ways to become 'the best' at earning a reward, and it is almost never by doing what was intended originally. Repeat: if you offer L$ for dwell, you'll get people who trick the system and force/trick people into dwelling. Whether they are bad or not is irrelevant - if you kick them, or stop them, someone else will do the same. To stop this, you have to change the fundamentals of the game, not the stopgap hotfixes.

Now, this next part is a bit more complicated. Land costs real money. Therefore, there is an impetus in some of the population (perhaps most, I don't know the climate yet) to make those lands pay at least that much. Offering dwell is the current solution - although, from what I hear, you can't hope to make back your US$ cost with the $L dwell brings in. The ONLY other solution is to make it pay directly, either by charging admissions or through heavy advertizing. Are those better alternatives? Both of them alienate the general populace... the populace that SL very much wants to keep.

My next point is simple - I got teleported to a club yesterday (my second day on this game). With my permission, of course. How did this hurt my experience? It didn't. Has anyone directly affected EVER complained? Not according to some of the posts in this thread. Why are you complaining about something that doesn't hurt the people it's supposed to be hurting? The only people affected are the other people who want to 'win' the 'dwell' game. But you aren't playing the dwell game to WIN. You're just PRETENDING to. If you wanted to win, you'd use the methods that help you win within the rules. Like certain clubs. Nowhere in the decency rules does it say you aren't allowed to harvest newbs, offer free memberships, etc. They're not harassing anyone with these actions. In fact, they're catapulting the newbs into a fairly rich new environment. If you don't like the fact that there's not a whole lot of socializing (I don't know whether there is or not - but someone mentioned that there wasn't), go there and socialize. Sure, you're helping them win the dwell game, but who cares? You're accomplishing your mission: drawing newbies into the game world.

On a final, unrelated note: it is generally accepted that roughly 20% of your population makes 80% of the contribution, whether in wealth or scripts or pageants or whatever. I would wager this is even more severe in SL - I doubt more than one in twenty people will ever run a pageant or start a nightclub... or write a script that's worth anything.

Those are the people SL needs to keep. No, needs to CATER TO. If they lose the 80-95% of the population of people who don't own land and don't contribute to the society, they lose a monthly fee or, more likely, nothing - those people likely paid the flat $10 entry fee. On the other hand, those transients will be replaced by the next swarm of people drawn to the game by the successes of that 5%. Sure, it'd be nice to keep everyone, but your priorities are on the ones that MAKE THE GAME WORK.

Scaring off and banning the people who add most to the game is like cutting off your head because it's taking an unfair share of your blood. So long as they are adding to the game, not torturing people or breaking rules of conduct or making the game un-fun for the majority... they're beneficial. Even if you don't like them. Even if they're sleaze. (I don't know the people you're arguing about, so I am not calling them sleaze. But even if they are, that's fine. They are adding to the game more than 95% of the rest of the population.)

My opinion.

-Ansi

We recognize that the nightly L$ dwell awards and the US$ monthly developer incentives based on dwell are far from perfect. The list of top dwell-getters is currently dominated by one type of activity and it's natural that residents who contribute in other ways feel left out. We'd love to see more diversity on the winner's list and trust that we will see this as additional forms of entertainment develop.

The objective and automatic nature of dwell makes dwell very efficient, and that is critical as we grow so rapidly. In the past, we've experiment with alternative rewards - the Game Competition last spring, the Float Competition on our anniversary. We do plan to offer alternative rewards in a systematic way but our attention has been on scaling issues recently.

Some info in response to your questions -

- If we find someone who has developed a technical way to cheat on dwell then we will make every effort to defeat it. Artificial idling does not result in more dwell. While the point that green dots attract more green dots is valid, this ploy can backfire when a visitor discovers most of the people at the party are not really there.

- We are enforcing the five-account limit and have made substantial progress recently.

- Offering people money to hang out at your place to increase dwell is not something that we plan on policing.

- Advertising at the welcome area is not allowed. We've drafted some clarification of the rules against advertising in the welcome area and they will soon be posted in the forums and available in an info dispenser in the Welcome Area. These will include: New residents are often don't know what's available in Second Life. While it's one thing to point an individual newcomer to suggestions that match what he or she has expressed interest in, it's quite another to try to teleport each incoming new resident to your business before they've even stepped off the Telehub pad. In general, suggestions made as part of conversation are welcome; however, unsolicited suggestions to join a group, or to go to a specific location, are not. Teleport offers made to residents in the Welcome Area should first be requested by the resident being teleported.

- We will work on educating new arrivals and warn them about joining groups and accepting TPs and suggest that they file abuse report or IM the liaison on duty if anyone advertises to them in the Welcome Area.

Keep your ideas coming. We do plan to keep the dwell system and we appreciate your ideas about how to make it work fairly.

I appreciate the response, Haney.

Thanks for the response Haney; I think this is a great start. People abusing the Welcome Area to increase their dwell will definitely have to think twice if new comers are educated on some peoples' motives, and encouraged to Report Abuse or contact a liaison.

Cheers,

-Flip

thank you haney