religion and death

For lack of a better subject.

WARNING: A topic similar to this made me question my faith, if you dont want that burdon DONOT read father!























Recently I have been questioning my faith. However I have tried to stay strong. But here is my question to everyone.


When you go to sleep, and you dont have a dream, its just a blank moment in time, right? What if there was no afterlife. What if after you died, eternity was like THAT. Would the killing end?

In my opinion, yes, it would. If everyone knew for a fact there was no afterlife, there would be no killing. After killing someone, people just think that their victim is alive in another dimension. What if that werent the case. What if once you died, it was erternal, dreamless sleep? Frankly this subject scares me, for if this is true, I am really afraid to die. If there is an afterlife, the only thing that keeps me from wanting to die and be treated to that paradise is my family. If I died what would they do? Please, I am asking for reafermation that there is a god and an afterlife. Please provide unquestionable evidence (a miracle perhaps?).

EDIT : I am also finding it harder and harder to smile or have a good time, knowning in the back of my mind my existance may end in a split second.


Please, I have never asked anything from this community. Now im asking for help.

A desperate soul
-Richard "Ryen Jade" Faraci

The killing is not going to stop because the killers don't give a damn about the lives of the people they are killing, much less the afterlives.

Faith is a very hard thing. You have to decide to believe in something that cannot be proven, and that is the leap. You have to have it within yourself, as it cannot be given - the further you look away from yourself for the answers, the further you will be from them.

Can someone keep that as a quote? That was possibly the best thing I have ever heard someone say about faith. Thank you huns, you just helped me get through this problem

Not to mention that after reading that, I similed for the first time in days, and I didnt have that thought in the back of my head

Afterlives are generally about consequences in one way or another. Many believe they will get their just reward from God at the end of their life. I believe what I'll get is another life here if I choose it. In virtually all faiths though, there is the sense that man is a spiritual being, not just a mortal body.

If anything, it is a lack of belief that a victim is a being just like himself that allows a killer to justify his acts. If the other guy is just an animal, then killing him wouldn't matter, right? And the killer is just an animal too, so he's not responsible for his acts, right?

No, faith in one's spiritual nature and that of others doesn't make one more likely to think killing is ok.

I want to thank you both for your support, after reading that I know this is the most supportive community possible, thankyou

Ryen it really comes down to somewhat of a mathmatical equation, for lack of a better analogy

The first words of the bible say that in the beginning there was God... do you believe that? Blindly and without question?
That was always the hardest part for me honestly.
I came from somewhere, you came from somewhere, this keyboard came from somewhere... God HAS to have come from somewhere... right? I mean it defys logic that if everything else you know in your world came from somewhere, then where did God come from?

Then, in my own life the most simple events began to affirm my blind faith in the concept that God always was and always will be. I was sitting on the front porch... just doing nothing, and up pops a red bird (cardinal I think). It was SO completely out of place. From that point on EVERY time I began to feel down or blue or depressed, up would pop some completely out of place reaffirmation that God does exist, pays attention to me and my needs.
Some days it was a little bird flitting around on the back deck of my house. Other days it would be something MASSIVE like a red tailed hawk.
I am positive there are plenty of people that would call all of these pure coincedence. But to me, it was and still is Gods way of saying, "Hey! If I can pay attention to you and your thoughts and at that instant show you something I made that you cant make happen on your own, hopefully it shows you that I love and care for you. If you dont believe me... flap your own wings and try flying! "

It never fails, in the 10 years I have lived in this house I have seen more silly little birds at silly little times. I dont have any bird feeders around, and yet, out of nowhwere, one will always pop up and remind me that God comes in ALL shapes and sizes. I always smile, nod my head and thank him for thinking about me.

As an aside, I was letting the dog out the other day to do his "business" and I remarked out loud, "Man! This is a 40 pounds of beautiful in a 5 pound bag kind of day!"
Out of the comeplete still of the day, a light wind came up, the leaves spun around in the driveway, and God chuckled.
Makes me smile just to type this.

I got no miracles for you other than the fact that if God hadnt sent me my wife, who I call my angel, so many years ago. I'd be dead, in Jail, or both. She is my miracle.

By the way, Ryen - the realisation that things may end at any time (if it's weighing on your mind as it appears to be) is probably the strongest reason to smile when the opportunity arises, and enjoy whatever comes your way.

Just my two pence...

Personally I don't want an afterife, either heaven or hell. And no reincarnation either. I certainly dont wanna be coming back HERE! Give me Oblivion.

There is an interesting religion I heard of recently.

Thier belief focuses around mathematics, and thier reason for the universe, the "Meaning of Life" is that "Nothing" is impossible. There must always be something, mathematically.

So there is.




If that's no comfort, I can tell you that I've personally met with people who were alive after thier deaths, and yes, there is an afterlife.

And yes it's terribly embarassing when the ghost of your grandfather visits you while you're doing the nasty.

In an infinite universe anything is possible.

In an infinite MULTIverse EVERYTHING is possible.

Let me prefacfe this by saying that there is no questioning the moral charecter of Jesus himself, and, while I may not think he is the son of God, the idea of a God doesn't seem completely out of the question to me, even if it doesn't rule the Universe actively. The bible also, while flawed (for example, a passage that it says Moses wrote ending with "and to this day, no one knows where Moses was buried." Flawed logic) is a wonderful bunch of stories with good morals, and I must admit, wtihout the bible we, as a race, probably would have killed ourselves off already.

Now, down to business. Try this for a couple days, Ryen, to see if you like it:

1) Forget everything religious about The Holy Bible, start calling it "The Book," and treat it like any great work of litterature: a plot with a cast of charecters, each with their own different agenda. I've been doing that for a long time, and now I appreciate the little jokes and metaphores scattered all over.

2) Whenever somthing happens that you deem as lucky, I'm srue you, as most people, think or say "Thank God!" Whenever you feel like saying "thank God," think, using everything you believe in as God (omnipotent ruler, bunny rabbit, whatever) and think, "Did God really do anything?" If you misplace your laptop, and when you find it, you say, "Thank God!" take a think: did God put your laptop there, or did you put it there? Did God make you look in that spot, or did you make a concious decision to look there? And so on.

If you like that, give me an IM or PM

[Edited down to keep this as simple and serious as possible hopefully without stepping on any toes.]

I'm well on my way down the path to athiesm. I have to admit that it's not a happy place. I sometimes envy those who can find comfort in faith.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad to have come to understand the world on principles of logic and well tested science, but my Real Life is quite dark, pessimistic and often depressing.

If what is most important to you in life is to Be Happy, then I suggest you find a way to stay connected with your faith.

You've pointed out something I've always found to be a fundamental irony in most religious thought. Religion is supposed to give meaning to this life, but I've always thought that it does the opposite... by convincing people that there's life after death it diminishes the meaning and importance of the one we know for certain we do get... this life.

A friend of mine recently showed me a chapter from a christian workbook. The message of the chapter was that people should try not to be too happy or content in this life since it's just a fleeting test before the real life begins... the next one. I think it's one of the most evil and vile things I've ever seen.

Ryen, the fleeting nature of this life and the lack of certainty about what, if anything, comes after is what makes life so important and so beautiful, and makes each experience both good and bad stand out as being truly meaningful. It just depends on your point of view. As an atheist I welcome and treasure every experience, even the ones that cause me pain or hardship... because they make me feel intensely how alive I am at this moment in time... and how precious and important every moment of our lives are. If you look at things that way even the most trivial event can be beautiful and rich in meaning.

Ryen:

I believe that faith doesn't come from a book, or a building, or a centuries old painting that happened to get a little moisture on it. Faith comes from within, it's an assurance you have with yourself and the universe that there is a higher being out there and that He (or she, who knows? but for clarity's sake He heresoafter is the pronoun I will use for that higher power ... could be a gerbil for all we know!) cares about you and what's going on in the world and that there's some higher purpose to it all.

I was once told that if we don't question our faith at least once in our lives that we don't really believe. It's human nature to be curious, and it's certianly human nature to ask questions too. Asking questions helps you validate that faith.

The fact that you're looking for answers says to me that you do believe, but you're on the brink of "not sure" because of all the terrible people in the world doing terrible things -- under the banner of "what's right". Don't let those people who do evil pull you down. Reach into your own heart and find that faith that you are doubting.

TP

I'd suggest to both of you to put that faith in yourselves. If your faith is your own and not dependant on any outside forces, then nothing can ever take it away from you. Self reliance is richly rewarding in a way that faith in something intangible can never be. This is of course only my personal opinion Live your life and place your faith and hope in what brings you peace of mind and happinness... just make sure that you're one of those thing you place your faith on.

Aww, poor Chip!

On second thought, your innocence must be preserved as a national treasure!

*blindfolds Chip and leads him away from the History Channel,...

infomercials...

the nightly news...

the public library...*

Hmmm, still too much evil! I'm afraid we're going to have to send you out to the farm. Your innocent eyes should be safe there, as long as you stay out of the barn.

And your point is?

Ya'll try not to stray from the topic here... we're trying to help Ryen. Personal comments on other's faith, beliefs or otherwise should prolly be kept to PMs

Ok...

The point is if this is the most vile and evil thing you have ever seen you have either not even turned on a TV and watched the news, or you are far more terrified of even the slightest expression of faith than I could have imagined.

I have wondered for a while just what you could have experienced that drives you to such lengths to as far as atheism goes. It seems like far more than just a belief with you, and more like a mission borne out of fear.

Anyway, sorry for the snideness.

It was a figure of speech Ananda. I think that teaching people that it's okay to be unhappy is fine and good, but teaching people that being happy and content is actually undesirable is twisted, harmful, and very very wrong.



Nothing happened to me Ananda, except that I've devoted a good portion of my life to philosophy and thinking deeply about how I feel about it. This is not the thread for a lengthy discussion about it but I'd be happy to sit down with you and explain my reasons any time.

My point, in case anyone missed it, was that putting your happinness, hope, and faith in something outside of yourself is dangerous. Ryen is saying that being uncertain about what comes after this life is causing her to lose her sense of well-being and making it difficult to be happy. Wether or not there's an afterlife shouldn't be a factor in being happy in this life... to the contrary, being uncertain if there's anything after this life is all the more reason to BE happy, because every moment we spend alive on this earth is important and beautiful. An inward faith in yourself and your future is healthy and exremely beneficial, no matter what else you put your faith in. If your faith in yourself is strong, doubt about things outside of yourself can't shake it or diminish it.

I'm not advocating that anyone abandon their faith. I'm saying that there are ways to look at life that can make your happinness less dependant on other things outside of your control that can't be known with any certainty. If a person can find that within themselves, free of any promise of reward from outside forces, everything else is just gravy Faith in yourself and your future are not mutually exclusive from religious faith, but are also not dependant on it.

Thanks for the positive words, but I've always had trouble understanding this phrase. I've heard people say it before, but it just doesn't process in my network of neurons.

Maybe this is like trying to describe a color to a blind person. I just can't make that phrase "click into perception" as it were, no matter how much I read it or hear it. Maybe it's like with other things (such as love), you can't understand it until you've experienced it.

Thanks for trying anyway

Ryen,

As an atheist I look at the world in a somewhat different way to you. I don't believe in an afterlife, and indeed, I would much rather such a thing did not exist.

Think of the time before you were born. I'm sure you don't regard this time (before you existed) with horror. I know I don't. So if we are not horrified by the void at one end of our life, why are we so scared of the void at the other?

If you are really so scared of death, perhaps you should think very deeply about your fear. Perhaps it is something in this life which is at the root of it.

The one thing we are sure of is that no one knows what is the other side of the curtain. Chip's advice is good.

I think it depends a lot on your definition of "faith in yourself". To me it isn't about believing that I have the power to make life go just the way I'd like it to and to avoid hurt and uncertainty. If that were the case I'd have to look at myself as a msierable failure, hehe. It's acepting that I can't control the future, and that it's okay, and knowing that I'm strong enough to take whatever comes. No matter what it is... something that brings joy or something that makes me want to gouge my own eyes out with a melon baller (and there seems to be more of the latter than the former), it's guaranteed to be interesting, and to teach me something new about myself and the world around me. And if that's all there is to life, it's not a bad deal at all

BEASTIALITY CLUB: I like bunnies.

Yah know, that's probobly somewhat what I believe in too, what you said about the Mathematics religion. I am literally and continually astounded by the elegance in which we humans visualize our universe. Im convinced once someone figures out the exact 1-inch equational definition of our universe, something big will happen, perhaps uniting the religious and scientific communities. I am also fond of reincarnation, but am a bit skeptical about it: How often does a wholly 'new' individual come into being?

/ramble

==Chris