LL delegated the power to ban problem users to SL residents

Well, theoretically you should be given fair representation.

However if we did a cost-benefit analysis, SL is already investing more than it should in dispute resolution.

Well, honestly, actions to me are seen as a fair representation of a person. A persons repeated track record for causing problems should paint a pretty picture for the review panels.

i was thinking whitewash.

(and what is the world coming to when i agree with blaze?)

If Linden Labs gave due process to people creating trouble on their privately owned servers it would be unprecedented. SL is not a government agency. Like the bar owner that kicks a rowdy drunk out of their establishment, due process is absolutely not expected.

However, for whatever reason, Linden Labs decided to extend part of the banning process to the "perp's" peers. Rather than cry about the rights you don't have over the Linden's servers, I would be thankful for how much they are bending over backwards beyond any reasonable expectation to include users in the process.

(sigh)

I really should know by now to never try to form a thought more complicated than a one-sided biased perspective, because the complete 360 degrees thought will never get through.

Are you calling me fat?

No, I think I was saying you were being very narrow.

Hah hah?

The 360 thought is getting out there, butbut unfortunatly, I don't feel that the accused should have any chance to defend themselves once it's taken to the panel. By the time it's taken to the panel, they've had plenty of chances to clean up their act, and not get in trouble anymore. Unfortunatly, they took it to the point where they could get perma-banned, and at that point, any rights they have to defend themselves were given up when they continued despite numerous warnings. They know the rules, they were given lots of warnings, yet they continued their actions, and therefore, say they don't care about the rules. At that point, any "rights" they have are null and void because why should they have the same rights as someone who follows and respects the rules.

Flipper, don't you remember the e-mail that went out to fraternal illuminati cadre about how we were going to... oh, you must not have gotten that mail... ummm... nevermind.

Robin, the general impression that I've been given over "Justice, Linden-Style" is that, while many users do earn suspensions for themselves and interact with the Lindens before having the hammer dropped on them, some users are getting suspended without being warning, and suddenly find themselves locked out of SL without explanation. An email follows shortly, basically saying "You did something in this general area, and you should know what you did, and no, we won't tell you what it was or who reported you." Attempts to dispute the events, or apologize, or offer to make amends are routed through an email system which takes long enough to get an answer back that, even if the person were to be vindicated, they have already served out their "sentence" and acquired a disciplinary record.

I can't speak for certain, however. This is just the impression that I've been given from this forum and the SLUniverse discussions. I haven't had the honor of experiencing the disciplinary process in SL, and assuming that Aimee Weber's paternity suit against me is decided favorably, I will not be getting banned anytime soon.

The figure of "fewer than 20" perma-banned residents does put thing in perspective however. If I'd ventured a guess, I would have guessed 10 times that amount, literally (somewhere just above 200).

I think that these first tentative steps of including the community in the discipline process are good ones, however, and I hope that they are only the first of a more open disciplinary process.

Great improvements that I've seen so far:

-Putting the police blotter back to use, with realtime information about ongoing abuse reports.

-Involving a quasi-jury of residents to provide feedback on questionable cases.


Other things that need to happen, in my opinion:

-Eliminate the "No naming names" policy, in cases where someone alleges abuse. People who report abuse should not be masked in anonymity, nor should the alleged miscreants.

-Require some sort of ability for self-defense, that is in equal measure to the punishment that is being considered. This means that residents should not be suspended without warning, and only be able to argue their side of the story after the punishment has been levied, via an email account.

-Allow TOS to be relaxed in cases of self-defense. If I'm shot by someone, I'd like to be able to assume that I may shoot back with a better gun, if I have it. We should not allow this to play out: A shoots B, B shoots A back, A reports B for TOS violation, B gets suspended.

-Get clear, fast, on damage-enabled areas. Damage-enabled should mean exactly what it is. No one, ever, should be punished for killing someone else in a damage zone. If we're not allowed to shoot people for any reason or even for no reason in damage areas, then there is no point in having them and they should be eliminated in favor of a grid-wide, opt-in system like the U/SL that was developed for Chinatown.

Thanks, though, for piping in on this thread. It's always good to see a company that is in such close communication with their userbase.

LOL.
Only 20 perma banned griefers in 2 years and someone still asks more lax rules and some more chances for a suspect to come out clear... I'm astonished...

If in 2 years only 20 people have been perm banned with all the continuous griefing acts we see every day, coming often from the same people, it means the rules are definately TOO lax, expecially since SL is one of the games in wich a griefer has the most power and chances to grief overall.
With more freedom should come more responsibility, griefers are not kids that just need to be mildly scolded to and then sent back to play.

Hiya Shiryu.

1. You have no place ever being astonished by the arguments I present. I'm the Devil's Lawyer, in your words, and you need only ever point at me and shout "EVIIIILLLL!"

2. I'm not asking for more lax rules for evildoers in SL. I'm asking for more transparency and openness in the proceedings. If a person were found guilty of a TOS violation and punished, after being able to at least present their side of the story to the Linden-arbiter, then their name should be revealed to all. Similiarly, a person who files an abuse report should have their avatar name attached to it, for all to see.

Actually after the revelation that onlt 20 people have been permbanned so far i am surprised that even the griefers' best friends could have something to complain... but yeah, maybe someone can think 20 is too much... The griefers themselves for instance...



On this i absolutely agree... This way griefers could be pinpointed and isolated, one of the best ways to fight them. Too bad i have alittle hope to see it realized.



... And here it comes, sure, so people will have to be afraid of retaliation by the reported griefer if he doesn't get banned. A griefer that stays in SL doesn't stop griefing, he just learns smarter ways of griefing. Griefers do NOT change.
An honest resident MUST have the possibility of feeling SAFE when filling an abuse report, not having his name screamed to the griefer and to the griefer's friends that can do whatever they want to him as soon as the lindens turn their backs (and they seem to turn it too often).

Again in the name of fair advertisement i propose this section to be added to the front page, alongside the Create, Own and other current sections:

Grief!

Tired of being chased by the police in real life?
Seconde Life has countless possibilities even for you!
Be an evil mad scientist and deploy your world-wide virus all over the world, create your own mafia or cyber terrorist group, build a tentacular crime empire to strike fear in your foes or smuggle mass-destruction weapons to pave the road for world destruction! Harrass! Threaten! Kill! Bomb!
The possibilities are endless!
And when those weaklings will try to abuse report you we'll send them a pre-recorded message to make them feel safe and do absolutely nothing else!
But the best thing is that if they try to react you will be able to abuse report them and we'll get rid of your enemies for you!
Be a griefer! Welome to Second life!

Let's at least show newcomers what they gonna find once they join. Unless the lindens finally decide to take griefing as a serious problem and take some kind of serious action like one would expect from an online environment's administrators.

Wouldn't a 'complete 360' point you in exactly the same spot as you started?

Yes, yes it would.

This thought is very much more round than you are accustomed ;0