Kasandra Morgan - it's a question of ethics

Malachi,

The flaw remained in the machine, so if she had paid Tony back through Find-->Pay his account still count have been drained by someone else.

Cristiano

http://nsi.org/Library/Compsec/computerlaw/Californ.txt

(c) Except as provided in subdivision , any person who commits any of the
following acts is guilty of a public offense:
(1) Knowingly accesses and without permission alters, damages, deletes,
destroys, or otherwise uses any data, computer, computer system, or computer
network in order to either (A) devise or execute any scheme or artifice to
defraud, deceive, or extort, or (B) wrongfully control or obtain money,
property, or data.

----
(d) (1) Any person who violates any of the provisions of paragraph (1), (2),
(4), or (5) of subdivision (c) is punishable by a fine not exceeding ten thousa
nd dollars ($10,000), or by imprisonment in the state prison for 16
months, or two or three years, or by both that fine and imprisonment, or by a
fine not exceeding five thousand dollars ($5,000), or by imprisonment in the
county jail not exceeding one year, or by both that fine and imprisonment.
(2) Any person who violates paragraph (3) of subdivision (c) is punishable as
follows:
(A) For the first violation which does not result in injury, and where the
value of the computer services used does not exceed four hundred dollars
($400), by a fine not exceeding five thousand dollars ($5,000), or by
imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding one year, or by both that fine and imprisonment.

I didn't do that. I didn't hack the game Bri, I played it the way it was meant to be played. Its just the script did not reset like it was supposed to.

Kasandra, you know, gambling money that you're holding for someone else is something that Fred Flintstone would do. Are you an IDIOT?

(1) Knowingly accesses and without permission alters, damages, deletes,
destroys, or otherwise uses any data, computer, computer system, or computer
network in order to either (A) devise or execute any scheme or artifice to
defraud, deceive, or extort, or (B) wrongfully control or obtain money,
property, or data.
-----------------

You knowingly used the slot machine to wrongfully obtain the data/property (Lindens), which hold a USD value of $234.00. You saw the bug, exploited bug. You didn't have to do this.

I'm not a lawyer. My opinion that what you did is a crime under California's Penal Code section 502, is just my opinion. Tony should call the FBI, make a report and allow them to investigate in due time - as well as call the local police authority holding jurisdiction in the city Linden Lab is located.

Briana Dawson

(1) Knowingly accesses and without permission alters, damages, deletes,
destroys, or otherwise uses any data, computer, computer system, or computer
network in order to either (A) devise or execute any scheme or artifice to
defraud, deceive, or extort, or (B) wrongfully control or obtain money,
property, or data.

Lets break this down.

Did I alter the machine? No.
Did I damage it? No.
Did I destroy it? No.
Did I use any data to do a or b? No.
Did I use a computer to do a or b? No.
Did I use a computer network to do a or b? No.

Had it been a bug he would have gotten his money returned to him by the Lindens. It was an error on his part.

I'm avoiding becoming entangled in this discussion, but cat; I've seen three posts by you in this thread. All of them aking pot shots at people and one insinuating that they are of sub adult mentality, all without contributing to the discussion. This casts some doubts on your own age group. Perhaps this heated thread isn't the best place for those remarks.

I like to have sex with ponies.

HEY! Are you calling Fred Flintstone stupid? Um, well yeah, I guess he is. And so are we, for still reading this dramatic trolling exercise. You can see better on Univision.

(Forgive the over-use of quote headings. I couldn't resist.)


I'm glad I'm entertaining. Really.

Logically speaking, though, if there were something wrong with your reading comprehension, you wouldn't know it, would you? The last time my reading comprehension was objectively assessed was more than a decade or so ago, in middle school.


Which is perfectly fine, and acceptable. I'm not "minimizing" your viewpoint, only asking for a rationale.


But this is another inaccurate analogy. Tony's machine was specifically designed to give away money; moreover, it was specifically designed because of Tony's oversight to give away way more money than he had originally intended.

To adjust your store analogy... it'd be like putting out a table full of stuff in front of a store with a sign that says, "FREE" and then being pissed when one person comes by and takes every last thing. No, you probably didn't intend for just one person to take away all the stuff that you put out there with the specific intent to have it taken without any sort of payment. But... how can you pretend that wasn't a possibility from the beginning?


My, you sound just like our president. He's all about calling it like he sees it. And, like with our president, putting it this way avoids having to provide a rationale for your decisions.

When you say things like this, what I hear is, "I have no inclination to go through your arguments and to find their logical faults. I have no intention of understanding exactly what you've written. I have a general sense of what you mean and it's to that that I choose to reply." All of which means is that you're not really responding to what I've said but to some characterization of what I've said, which means that we can only continue to misunderstand one another.


Perhaps this is a difference in how we understand "ethical viewpoints." You seem to believe that ethical viewpoints are in and of themselves as valid as the feelings that tend to motivate them -- such viewpoints exist outside of reasoning and may, indeed, be completely irrational.

It's my understanding that an ethical viewpoint must be derived from certain ethical values in a clear, demonstrable way. An ethical viewpoint not derived in this way is invalid ipso facto.

And I am not "blaming the victim" -- I am asserting that no victim here exists. If anything, Kasandra's been victimized by Tony -- who posted her name here on dubious grounds. Why isn't anyone asking that he take this case to the Lindens? Why isn't anyone chastising him for posting her name over a personal dispute?


I never said I couldn't be wrong or that people aren't entitled to what they want to think. All I ask is that, if you're going to try to assassinate someone's character, you have some sort of coherent justification for doing so. And if you disagree with what I say about it, you can either provide a rationale for doing so or you can do what many have done here, which is repeat themselves tirelessly and absurdly, in which case I will summarily dismiss your "face-value" "arguments" as the irrelevant fluff they are.

(I just saw Kill Bill, Vol. 2. I have to admit I have a bit of Pai Mei running through my veins still.)


*shrugs*

I suppose I'm supposed to be humbled by that final quip?

My intent in giving those examples was to show how the rationale that the wrongness of an act can be "obvious" can lead to illogical and unfounded conclusions, as it does when one says that gay marriage is "obviously" wrong.

This provides grounds for saying that an act that one says is "obviously" wrong is not necessarily so.

Is it "obvious" here that Kasandra is a liar or a hypocrite, or even that her actions resemble those of such? I have posited that she is not and that they do not, for reasons well-explained by this point. So it seems, once again, that what is thought to be obviously true is probably not so.

No one has offered any cogent rationale for saying that Kasandra is any of the following:

A liar
A thief
A bad person
A big bunny rabbit

It could be suggested that she is a hypocrite, but I would desribe her actions more as "confused" than intentionally hypocritical so far as her handling of her "winnings" is concerned. Given her own experiences as a casino owner, at least as she's related here, it would seem that she, indeed, is holding herself up to the standards she's established for herself, standards which, incidentally, Tony fails to meet; so in that respect she is also not a hypocrite.

All I was getting at in describing those RL cases was to show that what you or someone else believes is "obvious" may not actually be; it therefore is not sufficient to say that her acts were "obviously" wrong. You are right in saying that this does not mean her acts were not wrong, but the inability of the comparison of "obvious" moral judgments to a specific supposedly "obvious" moral judgment in proving the inefficacy of the specific moral judgment itself does not prove that the specific moral judgment must itself be justified.

(And before anyone makes fun of me for writing that last sentence, I will freely admit I barely understand it myself. I'm fairly certain it's properly structured, in any case, and makes my point. No guarantees, though.)

And I will state once again, for the record, that what Kasandra did was in no sense an admirable thing to do. All I'm saying is that I see no unethical act here, at least none perpetrated by Kasandra.

Kasandra has already broken this down and showed that she has not done anything to break this law.

But I would like to specifically add something she did not mention -- Lindens are not in any meaningful way ours. Lindens are data kept in our name by the LL, and LL is who decides how we manage those Lindens. They can erase our accounts if they so chose. They can also write a programming language which allows us to design scripts that can give that money away.

Kasandra didn't mess with any of that -- she played entirely within the game and by its rules. She found an exploit in a script another resident designed which allowed her to transfer Lindens from his account into her own. She didn't hack or damage anything, she didn't defraud anyone, she didn't do anything that you're insinuating, Briana.

If Tony were to go the FBI, I should well hope he'd get laughed out the door. I don't know how you can even suggest such a course of action -- don't they have more important things to worry about than 80K Linden bucks? Or even 200 or so RL bucks?

Thanks Phin but you can save your breath. They have already bullied me out of the game. Since this started I haven't been able to get anything done because I am constantly being harassed by people who don't even know the whole story and are getting half truths.

Want to talk about morality. When did lynch mobs and witch trials become moral? Oh well, if it doesn't work out I can always liquidate my possessions, buy a giant vibrator and name it Tony.

I'm sorry to hear it, Kasandra.

But if you think I'm going to save my breath... well, you don't know me very well, do you?

As for the vibrator... I don't know why you would sully a perfectly good vibrator with such an icky and decidedly unerotic memory. To each their own, I suppose.

Well if I am getting f*cked by someone I prefer there be an orgasm at the end.

Exploit: To make use of selfishly or unethically:

Artifice: An artful or crafty expedient; a stratagem; Subtle but base deception; trickery; Cleverness or skill; ingenuity.
----

Truly the saddest thing here is that a bug was knowingly used [exploited] to gain access to the Tony's Linden's - and not returned.

As usual topic's here get lost in everything but the subject at hand.

The act was wrong. period.

This is emminence maximization at it's worst. Tony's SL experience degraded so that Kasandra's experience is enhanced - through an exploit [see definition above].

I'm not saying Kasandra is evil or worse - I'm simply saying that what occurred to Tony, a long standing resident in SL, was a shame, it was wrong, and it looks like a crime.



I guess it helps to attack Tony. Your lack of remorse is astounding. You take his money - promise to hold it for him, spend it, promise to give it back, then dont, and finally insult him. Way to go.

Briana Dawson

Oh, yes, of course. You could even say it was "obviously" wrong.

Well if it was unethical because it was unethical how can I argue.



Yes, I was quite crafty. I gave the game money like it told me to, gosh how did I figure that out.


As for insulting him, I don't feel any remorse anymore. I didn't lose the money of a nice person, the person I was gonna scrape to give back half. I spent some vengeful's pr*ck's money who jumped at the chance to leave stuff out so frantic psychopaths could run me out of the game. Well, I am not there, he has his revenge, I hope he chokes on it. And no, I'm not being nice to anyone not being nice to me. Even if I won a million dollars tomorrow I would never give Tony back that money because he just got paid. He took it out of my @ss. I guess he was right when he said he would get paid one way or another.

edit:
ack.

And here we see exactly what I have been dealing with ever since the problem started. Nice going, Kasandra. You had many opportunities to do the right thing, but you decided to go this route. I warned you that you would not like it if i went public with your actions. Your only response was "go ahead."

I thought maybe you would learn something from this, but how stupid of me to think that someone with such questionable character could learn anything.

Since you are claiming I have been verbally abusing you this whole time why don't you cut and paste it here?

I am sure you have evidence of all these things I have said to you "since the beginning".

You know what, you aren't running me out of anything.

I don't need to cut and paste anything. Your words are already here for everyone to see. Glad to hear you're not going anywhere. You should know that neither am I.

I'm glad that you decided to stay Kasandra. It would be a shame to let the "lynch mob" drive you away.

Oh my goodness, 7 pages later and my head is exploding.

This is a terrible situation.

People know right from wrong whether they want to admit it or not. Being an adult is taking responsibility for your actions.

This is definitely a "piss on my leg and tell me it's raining" scenario. Profiting from someones unfortunate mistake is wrong.

And I thought perhaps my newbie paranoia was unjustified. Excuse me while I go make sure everything on my property is nailed down.

So, yesterday I'm flying around Epimetheus and stumble upon Kasandra with a couple of her neighbors. It turns out Kasandra recently purchase a 7856 parcel of land there for around L$60,000. I asked her where she got the money to pay for that (since she had gambled all of my money away). The response was something about having a bunch of money before she even knew me.

So, giving her the benefit of the doubt, which I have no logical reason to, why would she not mention this when she told me she had no money and no way of paying me back? Since she only started on 3/17/2004, she doesn't have a lifetime account, so she's paying $40 a month to sustain that amount of land.

This doesn't make sense, coming from a person who told me she was "flat broke" and had no money coming in in RL.

Hmmmm...