Anger about pricing

Tony, cancelling your account is not the way to save this game. Stopping 1.2 is not the way to save this game. The ONLY problem I see with 1.2 is that the L$ fees for land are too high. If we voice our opinion to have these prices lowered, they probably will do it.

I do NOT think cancelling your account is the right way to go about saving this game.

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I know how you feel. I'm in much the same situation as Cristiano's friend, and also yourself.

I held out on making a desicion until this info became available -- anyone who's known me for any amount of time knows that I'm no businessman.. my going rate is usually along the lines of either 'how much do you think it's worth?' to 'ah nothing it aint no big thing'.

Up until now that's always been 'enough' - my goals in SL were never to make large sums of money, but to continue working on a vision on my plot of land in Taber.

The news of 1.2 came at probably the worst time possible for me in RL -- my resubscribe comes up on Xmas day, and other situations make upgrading to life near impossible before that time.
These same situations also make it very hard for me to go from paying my quarterly rate (which is very reasonable) to close to that amount nearly every month.

The L$ information also shows me that to simply maintain what I have now and adjust is more than ten times the amount of L$ I possess. But in the end I think that giving away excess money, working for free, and helping ppl has made me a lot happier and truer to myself than the route of the business man would have.

I have no regrets.

I've had my time of denial, and of anger, and now I'm passing on to acceptance.

I'm sure that this only affects a small amount of us compared to the entire population. I sucks to be IN that small amount - but thats the way it is sometimes.

After looking at it from every angle I'm pretty sure I can make a well informed desicion on what to do come Jan 2nd.

I *know* a lot of people have enjoyed what I've built, as much as I've enjoyed building it - the evidence abounds from comments on ratings cards to logging into the middle of a fashion shoot. And that alone brings me a lot of joy.

I achieved my goal, even if I never got the chance to see my vision fully realised.
I may not be high enough on the over all dwell ladder to raise the attention of the powers that be, but I'm way up there on my friends choice of 'places to hang out' and 'you gotta see this' lists, and that makes me richer than any amount of L$ could.

Once I realised that, well there just didn't seem to be any point in being angry or bitter.

Anyone who's enjoyed the hospitality of Al Qadim, please continue to do so -- continue dressing up and taking pictures, swimming in the pool, and messing with the unfinished bits and pieces that are around there Make sure you take some pictures for me to add to my scrapbook too

In my rather large collection of Arabian source material theres a story by Neil Gaimen where a Caliph wishes his entire city into the land of dreams at its zenith rather than have his people endure it's decay into banality. So that it could endure forever in their memories and stories as a time of wonder.

I thought about that a lot, and for me it's a logical choice.

I achieved what I set out to do in this chapter of my SL, and now it's time to move on. To have what I've built decay and erode in bits and pieces would simply break my heart, and sully what people remember of it.

And so I'm moving on.. Come 2nd of January I'll be taking down my build and releasing the land it's on.

What will I do next? Hell I don't know, but isn't that excitment of new beginnings and uncertainty whats great about life?

Siggy.

sorry, james, we will have to agree to disagree on this one. tso did something very similar to this, and it was not until they started losing their user base that they started to listen. i'm afraid i'm tainted by that and other similar experiences, and i know that it seems it is drastic, but so far, i have not seen any budging on the Linden side.

Siggy,

I think that is one of the most touching and profound postings I have read on a message board. It just adds to my sadness about all of this. Thank you for your incredible build, I had a chance to visit it a few days ago with my girlfriend and I was astounded by the intricacy and beauty of it. I sincerely hope there is a way for it to remain, though I have no doubts that whatever work you do in the future will be even more impressive.

Regards,
Cristiano

I have to agree with Tony on this point as well James. If I were not a lifetime member, I would be having serious misgivings about staying. When There went from bad to intolerable, I spent my money elsewhere. That is ultimately the power we each have, and although I would hate to see Tony or anyone (well almost anyone) else go, I understand his reasons and support him. Besides, he is a troll and belongs in Worlds of Warcraft.

I really dont see why they even bothered saying they would "allow" us to maintain land with $L . Frankly all it did was get our hopes up a little and then smash them into tiny pieces with the next announcement.

Noone is gonna pay that kind of in-game money, frankly most people dont even have enough to maintain a decent piece of land for ONE MONTH. I've been here since beta and it would take all of the money I have to pay for a 1/16th for a month.

Just for the record, all i could do was laugh when I first saw the pricing.

<end rant>

The pricing does seem a little high, but remember that it is monthly----its not *totally* insurmountable....


Also remember, there are more L$ profits to be had, because rezing objects is free, and objects/land are tax free.

Hopefully, (as the Linden's believe it will), there will be more buying/selling of stuff.


Ergo, more opportunity for profit.


Ergo, you might be able to afford these prices.


We have to see if they give us a sufficient grace period on excess land (2-3 weeks should be enough) to allow the market to 'settle'.


The market system never deals well with abrupt changes, steady modification over time is much more preferable.

What is most likely gonna happen here is that the $L's value is going to drop like a rock. 1 Linden dollar will prolly end up being worth more like a Linden penny. Maybe to the point where these prices wont be so ridiculous anymore. But then they'll prolly just change the pricing again ;P

It does seem really excessive.

I currently pay about L$17900 tax for 6592m of land per month. And, stipend usually covers most of that cost. I do have routine weeks I lose money, but I am not an aggressive income seeker.

Asking L$10,000 for 512m per month is pretty steep. Okay, so its L$2500 a week. Factor the weekly grant, and maybe a little reputation bonus. Oh yeah, dwell bonus too. The average player is going to have to hussle up income of L$1000 - L$2300 a week to sustain the smallest extra parcel of 512m land.

I wonder what the average player makes in income per week. I know Joe Average is always looking for ways to make income, its a very difficult market to crack. My only real income is maybe L$2000 a month from hosting events. You judge yourself, some (minority, power player) this will be a piece of cake. I am afraid most will be out of luck.

The reason I signed up for my lifetime account so early in my time here was due to the nature of the game. There were no game mandated goals, I could do as much as I wanted or as little as I wanted without any penalty. No pressure if I didnt feel like doing anything, it was beauty.

Now, if you want the littlest bit more than your base subscription covers, you really have to work for it. Every week without fail. I didnt sign on to SL to have a part time job. The luxury of doing nothing was the draw for me when I signed up for my lifetime account.

The good news is this, at the bottom of the L$ fee schedules for additional land is this disclaimer...
All of this post is my own idea about how I see my current situation. I have no idea how the rates will play out in world once things get underway. We are going to have to wait and see.

I know the Lindens are listening to us, keep expressing your concerns constructively.

This is ridiculous. What folks are not seeing is that with a stipend of 2k a MONTH, and still paying a buck a rate, and 10 bucks per upload, nobody will have any money to spend. Folks are gonna scrimp every cent they have in the VAIN hope of offsetting their land fees.

Up until now I've been very optomistic, but now, seeing these insane land prices and RL fees that seem to fluctuate based on which Linden it comes from, this are gonna get very quiet around SL. If they do put up a mall, it's gonna be a ghost town. There just simply will not be enough L$ coming into the system to support any expansion or creation AT ALL.

Ultimately, I think they will figure out a way to land the L$ cost of land (and perhaps even the R$ cost) be variable, calculated monthly.


Factors that will be part of the equation:
1. How many prims/avs per server.
2. How many sims per server.
3. Whether or not larger sims are possible
4. Efficency of the physics engine (read havoc 2)
5. Value of the L$ ingame.


Unless they directly add sims everytime 30-40 players sign up, the land values will go down---remember, one can calculate the entire GNP of secondlife by simply calculating gross stipend+gross dwell bonus+develop bonuses.

These are the only sources of income.
As bandwidth/server resources become cheaper, they will be able to offer more land for the same cost.

LL is not out to screw us. The game is too small for them to start reaping monopoly profits.

This is about economic necessity, perhaps even economic survival.

Just my two bits,
bit

Yet we've been assured repeatedly that this has nothing at all to do with economic survival.

Linden Labs is doing fine financially... and that comes from the various Lindens. Hence, it's about nothing of the sort. It's about 'promoting more growth.'

What it's going to end up doing is driving off any longterm members that aren't lifetime.

The stipend might be significantly more. You aren't accounting for dwell bonuses, or rating bonuses.

Also, no more taxes. no more rezzing costs

What exactly are you going to be spending L$?

Answer: Uploads, and purchases

By far the largest portion of L$ are spent on taxes (just a guess). Most of my stipend goes to taxes.

Most users are NOT going to be spending L$ on land. They are going to be buying stuff from those who are.

My Dwell last night was 10 bucks.

I have yet to see it go over 20.

Yeah... that's REALLY gonna help. If I just use my sooper-dooper temporal speedup script I'll make enough to cover it! WOOHOO!

*grabs the crowbar to pull his tongue out of his cheek*

Ya know what? My highest Dwell has been 6 dollars. And that is when my WIFE was on my land (that we can't co-own due to lack of 2 person groups) working on a project. And Ratings don't flipping matter anymore unless you are one of God's Lovely People. Your ratings, in relation to the rest of the damn world are what matters.

Top 2.5% L$750
Top 5% L$375
Top 10% L$200
Top 25% L$75
Top 50% L$40

This means if your not one of the popular crowd, you get NOTHING for your ratings. I'm not a popular guy. I'm a nice guy though. Most folks I chat with give me positives for my behavior. I saw a couple bux here and there for that, was kinda nice. Now, I might as well neg rate my own ass into oblivion for all the good it'll do!

So, we now have a system where those folks that are socialites and popular get the bonuses. And those of us that just want to play around and build/script/experiment are forced to scrimp every last penny in the hopes of offsetting our land fees. Ya know what? I was pretty frugal with my money before, now I have no choice but to be downright stingy if I still want to afford uploading textures or sounds. You know, those little things that one uses to acentuate a low prim build...

FFS!!!

The L$ prices are insane. Simple budget calculations:

An extremely popular player with a popular build, who hosts an event each week:
Stipend: $500/wk or $2000/mo
Reputation: $750/wk or $3000/mo
Dwell: $100/day or $3000/mo
Events: $500/event or $200/mo

Total: $10,000/mo, or enough for 512 sq. m. of land -- if they don't buy anything from other players, ever.

Average player with a premium account:
Stipend: $500/wk, or $2000/mo
Reputation: $40/wk or $160/mo
Dwell: $5/day or $150/mo

Total: $2310/mo. Not enough to pay for any land.

Average player with a basic account:
Stipend: $50/wk or $200/mo
Reputation: $40/wk or $160/mo

Total: $360/mo

If you want to support your land off selling things, it will take the equivalent of the full incomes of four other players to support even a small shop. For a 1000-prim project, it will take a group of at least twenty players. For something like Elysian Island, you'll need 170 players -- not even Vin Fiz could afford this!

Carnildo, your post is a work of art. I'm gonna mark that one for my rants in other threads...

Back-of-the-evelope economic calculations, assuming that half of all events are $500 for the host, plus $500 in prizes, and the other half are just $500 to the host. Also, the effect of players with basic accounts is ignored, since their stipend is a tenth that of those with premium or lifetime accounts.

2000 active players x L$2000/mo stipend = L$4,000,000
50 players x L$3000/mo reputation = L$150,000
50 players x L$1500/mo reputation = L$75,000
100 players x L$800/mo reputation = L$80,000
300 players x L$300/mo reputation = L$90,000
1000 players x L$160/mo reputation = L$160,000
400 events x L$750/event = L$300,000

Monthly GDP, not counting dwell = L$4,885,000
Monthly per-capita GDP, excluding dwell = L$2,442.50
Total dwell bonus per month: L$720,000
Monthly GDP, including dwell = L$5,605,000
Monthly per-capita GDP, including dwell = L$2,802.50

This will let 530 players support small in-game builds using L$ -- if none of the players who aren't supporting builds pay only to the players that need the money. Alternatively, it will support 13 full-sim builds and a quarter-sim build, with a little left over.

All the income factors except dwell scale linearly with the number of players, and dwell is constant, so at most, about one out of every four players will be able to pay for their land in L$ at the current rates. If a few of the in-game rich pay with L$, or if large groups do, the number of players able to pay drops dramatically, although the total land paid for in L$ increases.

Hah I think its a great idea James! LMK if you decide to do something

Being the neutral person that I am, you will find that I usually avoid the controversial threads on the boards. However I feel the need to step into this one.

First, thank you Cris for expressing my feelings in a way that I could not have done. I've gone from elated, to shocked, to sad, to angry, and now... to just taking a step at a time and holding on to all that I can.

Jellin, I am not upset you mentioned my name. Cris is just super protective of me, but I know you meant no harm at all. And thank you greatly for your concern! *hugs*

I am yes, very upset with the pricing structure. Thus far it is my *only* complaint with v1.2. But its a doozy of a complaint. As others have stated, some of us have scrimped and saved and finally were able to buy pieces of land and start projects only to now see them *taken* from us even though we worked, payed, and earned them. I do not have the RL dollars to fund this game the way it is set up. I do not have the Linden dollars to support it either. Yes I was among the first 25 to recieve a developers bonus. It was roughly 22 dollars (I'm sure I was nearer to 25 than 1.. hehe) and I am honored beyond belief to have earned it. I do not however think that I will *always* be in this category. And if I had my way, there would be a lot more factors involved than just dwell.

I am not leaving SL, but I am going to have to sell the land I have in Olive. I spent every dime of profit I ever made from my shop to buy the land and develop the Fashion Show Event Hall. This hall was to be my way of giving back to the SL community. As a non-profit project, it was going to be fully funded by my sales from my Boutique and Gallery. And anyone close to me knows how excited I have been about this project. The emails from LL dashed a dream, and well, it hurt.

Thankfully, I have had many people step forward and offer me their land for event nights. So I will charge forward with the project, just in a slightly different fashion (no pun intended ). Thank you so so much to the wonderful people who have stepped forward and offered me help during this time. We have a wonderful community here in SL, and we *will* get through this together.

The price plan as it stands is unacceptable. I will be joining with others in game for protests, letters of reason, and whatever other means within the system we can find to change this mistake on the part of LL. They are human too, and yes, they can make mistakes.

Other than the pricing plan, I am looking forward to what v1.2 will be bringing to SL. I do love this game, and I will fight for it!

I have to agree with Pen.... there's a lot in 1.2 that would be very cool..... but the pricing structure is amazingly screwed up. I've also gone from being annoyed, to relieved, right back to annoyed, and now resigned to what will happen. But I seriously hope that the new pricing scheme will be fixed.