Vehicles its Official!!

Yup Last night while tinkering around in Pre-Preview of 1.6 in a small discussion with Philip Linden it was noted that Vehicles still Crash at Sim Lines. I was praying for a fix in this reguard but it doesnt look like its comming this time around.

I'm not trying to bitch here nor belittle Linden Labs in the slightest as they have created an awesome environment.

However, I am befuddled that so many problems that have been existent since almost the beginning of SL are going unfocused on.

Granted Streaming Video is nice but now your really gonna see some funky wooden prim people running around from plot to plot looking for kewl videos. But to a lot of us thats not as important as Teleport issues/Permissions bugs/Lag in general/Client Crashes/ and many others of more importance.

Although I am extremely pleased with the Inventory Function and the Land List options I am severly dissappointed that several things mentioned previously seemed to be ignored in favor of "Streaming Audio/Video"

In one sense I guess you could say I am whining. But I think I have a few legitimate complaints as some of these issues have been around for ages.
It merely boggles the mind and makes one wonder whats the point of making something if you dont fix old issues first.
I fully understand the need to develope and get things out on the platform. But fixing old issues may lead to not having new issues when implimenting new items for roll out.

Oh well I digress...Opinions thoughts and please no flame wars.

Shadow

Philip said categorically that there would be no new features developed until bugs were fixed and the system was more stable. I take it Philip tells us what we want to hear. OK, he lied didn't he. Plain and simple. But then, that's business for you - tell your punters what they want to hear at the time.

Looking at the 1.6 release notes, I can see a whole host of new features and only a small list of bug fixes, most of which are small and insignificant and don't even appear to scratch the surface of the majority of bugs.

But hey, Philip will be happy, he's got his next 'killer' feature to get some more press with - video.

heh. I can't cross sim borders just walking or flying without a relog. Vehicles have been out of the question for me since 1.4. But then no matter how many times I bug report, they manage to ignore it.

And yes, Philip just tells us what we want to hear so we keep ploughing the money in in the vain hope that one day it'll get better. And for the record, Philip, better means that I can tp and walk around the world, not that avatar labels have curved corners and semi opaque backgrounds.

Bug fixes don't get you the column inches. New whizz-bang features that you can demonstrate in 10 minutes to get some press whilst not exposing the mammoth list of bugs does, however.

Don't be so pessimistic. They're actually adding a feature that a lot of people want that has been implemented as a crappy hack for a long time. There is also some excellent things on that list such as inventory and the list of objects.

I do agree the long standing bugs are annoying. It is sad that the basic features of SL are still fairly unreliable, but at least they are managing to add in things that the community has been asking for whilst squashing some bugs.

Great. As soon as I can stay logged on for more than a few minutes, I'm sure I'll learn to appreciate them. Sometime around 1.6.6 when they actually work as advertised. Anyway, the Lindens already fixed my inventory problems... they made about a third of my inventory disappear and another third now don't exist in the asset database. That solved the 'having to sort my inventory' problem.

</pessimism>

You joined in January of this year so the pessimism won't have dug in yet. I joined in Jan of last year and, I'll let you into a secret, my pessimism has blossomed from the serial inaction that LL show over fixing bugs.

Here's an exerpt from the town hall meeting with Philip Linden on October 28th last year:



What had he said before that I was referring to? Here's the quote from his blog also from October that preceeded the town hall:



So why does 1.6 have so many new features when the bug list grows ever longer? You can't tell me that having video on a prim does anything to solve any current bugs, can you? In that time the supposed 'near-term' development has not made a dent in the long list of bugs, some of which are pretty major and have hung around for a long time.

There's my pessimism for you.

moopf/ Kris, while I have sporadicly known both of you quite a while and we all seem to share the same befuddlement as to why they are not fixing bugs.

I still think it may be better to ask for some defintive reasoning as to why this approach was taken.

For example. Moopf mentioned about the 10 minute Press release thing. Here is my take on something of that nature.
Sure its great to be able to show "Streaming Video" off as an eventual capability.
But what happens when you have 9 streaming Videos in a sim and you click on a simple animation to dance or whatever and the server and client crash.

Not a postive outlook for prospective customers and investors if they go in and test it.

Again Im not trying to be negative an focus on the negative I want LL to grow hell I have a very very expensive vested intrest in SL growing. But still some of this is important and curious minds would love to know.

Shadow.

Shadow, just above this post of yours I've posted quotes of Philip Linden himself. Remember when things started getting really bad in September/October last year. He said they were concentrating on bugs and stability. He then distanced himself a little from that at the town hall but still insisted that all development was going to make the underlying problems easier and help remove some bugs, even the new stuff that was being worked on may look like a new feature but in fact was addressing the issues that were already here. Maybe Philip's the only one who can really answer why we've been misled, I dunno. I'm sure he'd spin any answer in a way that makes us realise that video, for instance, really has helped to solve stability and bugs.

My point about the 10 minute show-off is that LL can get big publicity by announcing a new feature such as video, get press, maybe interview spots etc. None of that needs go anywhere near anything that they know would cause a problem - they can do it almost in a controlled environment if you will. Once new customers come in and find the problems, any press caused by that would be slow and disjointed, without the same gravitas as the shiny press gotten on the basis of the new features. They wouldn't demo the system to the press with 9 streaming videos in a sim if they knew that would cause a problem - they'd demo it to it's strengths and hide the weaknesses, as all PR does. But if 1.6 was just a raft of bug fixes there would be nothing to sing and dance to the press about, and I'm sure their investors wouldn't be happy with that.

Each major point release is another excuse to get the press interested to get the Second Life brand out there. A bug fix release wouldn't give that which is why, at the end of the day, they have been working on new whizz bang features and haven't been keeping to their promise of killing the increasing mountain of bugs.

Moopf sorry I meant 9 streaming after the fact. For example Joe Schmoe Investor goes to LL and Phil and Robin n the techies show them this fantastic Streaming Video.

The investor says kewl I love this I will invest 5 mil. into further development of this technology as I would love to have my 52 corporate offices working in 3d VR to communicate and manipulate video conferencing.

Then they get the platform pay the per seat cost ...for those that dont under stand per seat its basically per account cost. Then 15 of the corp offices get online and start streaming 9 videos and they click on something else momentarly and boom they crash.

last night I hit Alt+1 Time Dialation was .89 and FPS was running right around 23-29. there were 9 avatars in the sim at the time and with it being a Preview there were hardly any builds or additional scripts active. Yet the lag was immeasurable. Personally I crashed 6 times and each crash was related to the Streaming Video playing while I was trying to do something else from starting an animation to simply looking in my inventory.

Basically the hardware being used just couldn't keep up. Imagine this in a corporate environment or just the simple user for that matter.

Sorry I know it seems negative of me but its more so flustration than negativity.

Shadow.

I'm not too sure they're worried about that at this point unless they've pissed away their $8 mil investment from late last year already (if so, on what I wonder!) Mind you, they got that $8 mil investment at a time when the stability of the system took a great leap over a cliff, so I'm not sure that's any barometer as to whether bugs would affect their ability to raise more capital or not.

I guess the only recourse is to quit SL!!

Honestly shadow, wtf, you get on preview and all you can think of is bitch about sim crossings and vehicles? Is there no sunshine in your world?

I guess what pisses me off is that bugs are being addressed, (along with REQUESTED features - like sell objects WITH land) but of course, the clamoring users, with their mouths agape screaming 'Me me MEEEEE' can't see that, its all about *their* problem that has to be fixed right away.

I'm sympathetic for some, like Kris, which actually I bet lies more on the fact of a few thousand miles of transatlantic cable and dodgy BT, than it does on SL, but I'd like to think there's more going on there than just 'SL sucks'.

Yeah vehicles have lagged on the issue list, and things still ghost...but damn people, I just have to say something after a while, the gloom and bile is about to swallow you all.

Oh and shadow, the preview being run is still being tweaked -- the issues with the lag and such were known, and bug reports were busily being filed. Instead of sitting around expecting it to be flawless, people were trying to help identify problems. I almost want to....no hell, I'll say it -- if you want to get into preview just to bitch, do us a favor and sit in 'regular' SL and bitch, because god knows you seem to do that just fine.

Your attitude irritates me, because this is unreleased development stuff, and you expect some kind of perfection that cannot be attained on a first or second run-through.

Gah, users. *throws up hands*

I agree, I agree, I agree, I agree, I agree, I agree, I agree, I agree, I agree, I agree, I agree, I agree, I agree, I agree, I agree, I agree, I agree, I agree, I agree, I agree, I agree, I agree, I agree, I agree, I agree, I agree, I agree, I agree!!!!!!

I spent countless hours day after day for almost 3 weeks to script my cars to work around SL's blatant weaknesses (at least now they are decently manouverable in lag filledn environments and they dont get stuck in the asphalt at sim lines) and i see absolutely no effort server side to solve those weaknesses. This despite the fact that veichles are plenty publicized on SL's first page.
I could use my time in getting the physics perfected while i have to waste time to work around some silly bugs....
Or if they don-t plan to do something to make veichle behavioir less buggy they should at least stop publicizing them on the front page, making people think they can drive or fly all around second life with no problems.

It's amazing how many times previews have happened and the code has then been unleashed on the main grid only to find that bugs reported in the preview were still there and people crash left, right and center. Explains why after every major point release within the space of a week or so there's two or three other patches issued to eliminate the serious problems. I guess Shadow's just sick of that happening and can maybe see it happening again. I can understand that, as I'm sure even some of the vociferous linden-apologists would as well if they'd take their rose-colored glasses off for just a second. That and that long term issues still haven't been touched. Look at the release notes, especially the bugs that have been fixed. They're not the major ones are they, they're small and mostly insignificant. That's not fixing bugs, it's tinkering around the edges.

1) The servers running the preview grid are older, slower hardware.

2) You've made an incorrect but common assumption that the developer who wrote the video code has any familiarity with the physics / sim crossing code.

Most programmers have specialties; they aren't usually interchangable for any particular task. What you're implying is that a developer who is familiar with 3d rendering engine code should stop and work on physics/networking code. The two are completely different.

Additionally, adding more developers doesn't always help fix a problem; read about Brooks' Law:

http://www.answers.com/topic/brooks-law

3) It's quite horribly unfair to be judging the stability of software when it's still in beta testing phase, and still a few weeks from release.

I normally defend the lindens in these cases, but you have to admit... It may be unfair, but they have sorta earned the doubt. It seems like there are always issues from preview that people complained about, quite plainly, and don't get adressed till 2-3 patches after release.

While I agree with you on the annoyances of vehicle travel, lagging, and all the other bugs still in the system, I don't think this particular issue should be a problem.

Streaming video does not originate from the server...it's just like streaming audio; SL redirects your client to a video stream on the web. The server should not have any real traffic. And, because you can only see video on the parcel the texture is on, your client is only handling one video stream at most. Video won't have much more impact on lag than streaming audio does, if it functions like people are saying it does.

As to why they are putting in new features over fixing bugs...We need to realize this is an actual Version change, not just a build/patch. Going from 1.5 to 1.6 is signaling a whole new software product...It's not like this is 1.5.16. At least for this upgrade, we'll need to expect that new features will be empathized over tweaking software.

I work in technical support for insurance software, and I sympathize with the issues of long-lived bugs in a software product. But I also understand that it's a product; something that LL is trying to bring to its full vision. The Lindens have to keep moving forward if they really want to make Second Life like people envision it. If they get mired down in trying to fix every technical issue out there, there will be *no* progress made on the product, period.

/me wonders how recently THERE unrolled an update preview...
Oh that's right, never mind.

Maxx maybe you need to go back to Reading Comprehension 101 as apparently you missed the whole thing.

In my initial statement I even complimented LL on the features that were most requested in the past yet my initial sentiment of the whole thread is befuddlement and flustration.

There are several more issues that i didn't mention as others are expressing them via different threads and some need to remain Low key.

However, if you think its all about "me me me" when I mention something you may need to regroup and reread.

As 9 times out of 10 the things I complain about are things people have been complaining about since before you were borne in world.

What amazes me is when someone jumps in a thread and has no back ground about the situation.

13 months ago Darwin was working on a TV just befor XMRPC was invoked. The Streaming Video Format thing was being predicated way before this release. ((Reason I know this was it was same time frame we were working on the Online Store Thing))

However, at the same time these other bugs had been around way longer than the invention of th direction of Streaming Video.

This isnt speculation this is fact was there seen it and asked tons of questions about it.

So Max before jumping in Touting everyone is spouting Gloom and Doom at no point did I even mention Gloom and DOOM.

I dont for an instant foster the Chicken LITTLE mentality because if I did I would have been gone from SL Ages ago.

What I simply asked was why? why this route versus focus on known bugs. Some bugs they really cant mention much about.

But at the same time the ones that are causing big problems such as Sim Crossings/Teleports/Lag/Packet Loss/Mem Leaks/Client Crashes and more are being left in limbo for years..."yes! Years Max Imagine that!" on end.

All I was asking for was a simple explination. Imagine this for a moment..they give an explination and well of course there are RL GD's out there that may have a technical sollution that could help in fixinig the problem. But without knowing what the issue is that is causing the problem other Ideas cannot be offered up to help solve it.

But then again I should have kept my mouth shut as apparently my intention was all about me and not anything to do with the rest of SL anyway...so woe woe is me at least according to the perception of the last post full of chargin.

Have a good day

Shadow

Poor you. I do sympathise... I write insurance software. Complete with long lived bugs!

It would be quite horribly unfair if the consistent track record of Linden Lab was anything other that rushing previews through and releasing code, still containing bugs highlighted in preview such as crashes from instance, onto the main grid. Unfortautnely that's been their modus operandi so forgive me if I'm one who doubts that this will be any different and that within the first week or so we'll go through a host of patches to the more serious problems whilst other, less time-sensitive problems in their view, are left to stack up with the others.

I remember when the reason they gave for the poor quality of major releases was that they didn't have QA properly setup and Cory was basically doing what little QA was happening. They've had QA people for a while now yet the effect of having more QA people has been negligible to non-existant. My feeling is still that they rush major releases with new snazzy features to fit an external timetable and not when the code is of sufficient quality to warrant it.

Again Max you dont know me as I reported several bugs knowing its a PREVIEW.

Secondly My initial sentiment was the Sim Crossing thing isnt being fixed this go around Period.
That was From the keyboard of Philip Linden himself that it was not focused on this time.

So my thread was
A) informative to Vehicle Creators
B) Questioning as to why Video Streaming was the Highlight of the "NEW Features" and
C) Questioning why other more important bugs were not being fixed.

Unfortunately to your lack of Knowledge I have several friends that stand around Lagged to death due to the aforementioned bug Issues.

But thats ok its ok that a person that has lived through all realeases and patches to date should have any thing to complain about I guess.

But then again your attitude infuriates me as well considering you have no clue of conversations and actions being taken during Preview.

You know there is no point in arguing with somone that is ignorant of the situation.
So I will humbly bow away from your commentary any further as it only serves to mock and infuriate.
__________________________________________________________________________

Kex, I never for a moment concluded that Vehicles crossing sims had anything to do with Video.

What I did say was why were resources focused on video streaming versus seeking out methods to fix current bugs and bug issues.

Yes the developers that "Institued" Streaming video could have been used to fix "Lag Issues due to Video Cards" Client Crashes due to Video operations.
List goes on but the misconception that those that created streaming video currently could have been put to better use is a fact not a misnomer.

Shadow

Ditto to what Kex said, and I'll add the following:

- How many people really use vehicles? Granted, it's something that could use far better support, but it's hardly the backbone of the product.

- While some bugs can be fixed in a matter of minutes, others can take a huge amount of time to investigate, fix, test, re-test, re-fix, and so on, especially if they are very complex or located in a part of the software that needs a re-write to begin with.

And, my biggest point: It makes sense for LL to balance development time on both new features and bug fixes.

Both are very important, especially for a product like SL. For many users, "missing" new features are even more annoying than actual bugs -- or, to put it positively, new features are often greatly appreciated by a large number of users. I'm sure some number of bugs have been or will have been fixed in 1.6 (note, it's not done yet, especially from a bug fix perspective).

Furthermore, new features allow improved marketing to new users, and expanded uses by existing users, which allows SL to be better marketed and makes more revenue possible: which, in turn, means more resources can be directed toward development and other things users clamor for (server capacity, support, improved marketing, etc.).

When there are legitimate complaints about bugs, maybe one thing that could be done rather than just whining is (respectfully) performing a survey or somehow making it clear to LL which bugs people would appreciate extended developer time on (at the expense of other things). This is maybe something that would be best done as a large-scale project, that could query a large number of users over time and give tabulated results to LL in an easy-to-read format.

Finally, since I can't seem to manage a post without a far-out idea, here's one:
Hypothetically, the pool of residents who have an extreme interest in a particular bug being fixed or a particular aspect of the software being worked on could team up and inquire as to how much it would cost LL to deal with the bug in question, then collect donations from people in this group or others who are interested in seeing that bug fixed or feature added. Of course, this wouldn't work in all cases, but it might be worth proposing to LL if there is really such high demand for a given development task.

(All that said, I think more full-fledged vehicle support could open a lot of opportunities for use of the SL software, including active competition with published racing games, GTA comptetitors, etc.)

It's been done. None of these are unknown bugs, even unkown to the lindens. THey have been bug reported time and time again, directly adressed by the lindens (Mostly as in: We aren't doing anything about it right now), etc. We can't tell them anymore, or any louder, or any clearer.



We shouldn't have to pay extra for the software to work right in the first place.

That would be like charging money for security fixes for windows.

Not that they didn't try that once, as I recall... Back with Windows 98, or something...