France places a ban on religious head cover in schools

How about they just ban all headgear and necklasses and not put a specific on it. Solves the problem and no one can B@#$%.

Antagonistic Protagonist -

I created time, I have always been here and always will be. You belive I am lieing, but you cant proove that. I must be a god.

Lack of faith does not require faith. I do not belive in deities. This does not mean I have faith in my lack of faith, but nice try.


Fallingwater Cellardoor

Heaven (heh) forbid we remove a few of them.

Chip and Juno:

...except that the entire discussion revolves around an action taken by public schools... (Not in the United States, true.... but the concept applies.)

The problem is that religion is a viral meme... and it influences how people think. Once you let religious symbolism into the public sphere... people begin to think it belongs there because 'it's ALWAYS been there...'

yes, like 'In God We Trust' on our money... Could we just go back to: E PLURIBUS UNUM?

There's nothing wrong with religion influencing the way people think - when it rarely influences them to do good. We would likely all be better off if we had a better recall of the ten commandments and took them seriously. Just because they were dictated by a burning bush to some jackass with a poor sense of direction doesn't make them any less good rules for living, most of them.
The problem is that too many of the faithful tend to neglect the tenets of charity and justice and good works common to all faiths and are rather influenced to despise and kill others because they whack off the ends of their wieners and don't eat bacon, or they make women walk around in a bag, as if they as women have something to be ashamed about, or they make their wives shave their heads and wear wigs because pretty women were raped by Polish noblemen on their wedding nights six hundred years ago.
I am all in favour of personal expression, to the point that I don't have to look at pierced tongues and eyeballs and the like, but believing that you have to wear hats or veils, or in the case of the LDS complete sets of holy underwear, just to show how faithful you are, that is just Pharisistic to a rediculous extent. It does not serve to bring people together. It is, in fact, no diferent at all from wearing gang colours.

No, once you ban it from the public sphere, you spark rebellion and unrest among the people. Heh, not to mention that if you ban something, it will cause tons of kids who would otherwise have had no interest to flock to the subject in droves. Think it through, hun

-AP

Naw... Just send a kid to Ciro for a week. When they come back they'll be in so much religous inundated shock they wont wana touch the scratch again.

Bravo!!!!!! You can thank the knights of columbus for that, and also for the insertion of "under god" in the pledge of allegience. Congress gave in under heavy lobbying by them in the 50's to make sure no one mistook us for the "godless commies." I for one will continue to fight for getting both insults removed as long as I'm still breathing. Or maybe we should change the pledge to more accurately resemble the reality... "one nation, under the thumb of special interest groups, without regard for anyone else."

Oh, that's right. I forgot. I'm taking an extremist position banning all religion everywhere...

Oh wait no I'm not. My bad. (Or is it?)

Juro and Chip have already put their collective finger on EXACTLY the problem I'm referring to? How many people in this country think that this is a 'christian nation' because of 'In God We Trust' on our money? Or 'under God' in the pledge? From talking to people? In my experience a LOT.

Yep, you're absolutely right Corwin. And the funny thing is that the majority of the founders were deists, not christians. In fact some of them were quite hostile towards christianity. Amazing how that never seems to work its way into the history books

Ant, I kinda figured that use of a Native American mascot celebrated the strength, determination and values of the same. I remember a few years back people were protesting the New England Patriots because their mascot celebrated a bunch of dead white guys. One of these days I hope to figure out when the choice of a symbol celebrates it, or denegrates it.

And I am not complete insensitive to these issues. I remember "Squaw Peak" in Arizona - I grew up thinking a "squaw" was an indian woman. Then, people began to say that that word was a derogatory term referring to an indian woman's "privates". I then wholly supported the name change. But I consider this an obvious issue, not like my first paragraph above.

I would just kind of like to throw my little story in here. I wish not to offend anyone by this but explain my stand on it. Most people I have met in this game, well alot, are either anti-christian or anti-religion period. There are alot of times I feel rather intimidated because of what I choose to believe. It has become less and less common in my life to actually find someone who believes as I do. I do believe in God but I have many reasons why. I have had a very dark and harsh life that in many moments I have wondered how I survived. In my darkest hours, I have felt and seen things that I probably could not explain to you. I just know that a gift was given to me and I have lived because of it. That being said, when I was in school I wore a cross on a chain that meant a great deal to me. It was the only thing I was ever given in my childhood from the only person that cared for me. One day I was called to the principal's office and was told that I couldn't really wear the cross, at least, not where it could be seen by others. When I asked why I was told that it had offended numerous people because they felt as though my beliefs were being pushed on them. He said that he felt like kids should be able to come to school without worrying about such things. So I proceeded to ask him what he thought taking away my right to wear something I hold dear did to me? Was he going to ask the african american kids to stop wearing their "its a black thing you just don't understand" t-shirts? What about the girls that wear the bindis? What about the kids who wear the rainbow bracelets? Of course the list went on and on. If I sit here and tell you I am offended by these people because they choose to wear such things that is my right. I will not ask you to take away their right to wear it. My opinion of school after that went downhill as well as my experience. I wore my cross still, though hidden from sight like a dirty little secret. The world is becoming a place where there is little left you can do, say, or wear that doesn't offend someone somewhere. Let me make clear to you that I was not offended by any of those other kids I spoke of, it was an example of my meaning. Anyways that was long winded I know lol. Just wanted to say something.

Good post Torrid. Thanks for sharing your story. Since you were still able to wear your cross I'm wondering why it mattered that others could no longer see it? I think that's the crux of the issue for me. If it was just something that gave you personal comfort it shouldn't have mattered if it was visible to others, should it?

I think the main reason most non-religious people have such a problem with religion, especially christianity is that it isn't just about people believing something that gives them personal comfort. They have a mandate to "spread the good news" and "save" people, and that's hugely offensive to a lot of people... myself included... because it shows a complete lack of respect for other people's beliefs. Because of that, I think most non-believers are very unsympathetic when christians claim that they're being persecuted. They've been persecuting everyone else for thousands of years.

If your belief brings you peace of mind and strength to get through your life, that's a wonderful thing, but it's also a personal thing and it shouldn't matter one way or the other if you keep it to yourself in the public square. If you for some reason need to show it to others or proselytize then it's not just a personal belief... it's an intrusion on the beliefs of others.

Most of the people I know... friends, family, coworkers, have been christian and I respect their views and beliefs. But I do not respect christianity itself because it teaches people that I'm inferior, damned, and not to be associated with unless it's to convert me from what I am. How can any non-christian not be offended by that? It's not a "live and let live" belief system.

It wasn't about whether someone could see it or not, what bothered me was that suddenly I had to be afraid and worry if it could be seen. Its one thing for me to decide to wear it under my shirt or keep it in my pocket etc, but for someone to tell me that wearing it was wrong and to keep it hidden or not wear it at all made me feel uneasy. It wasn't long after before the gay symbols could not be worn, etc etc. I guess in their case they wanted others to know they were gay and proud of it so when they were told to hide it or not wear it, it lost its meaning. That wasn't my case, but to take away my right to wear it or to make it so that I had to worry constantly if it was seen I didn't feel it was right. I wasn't trying to preach to the world or "spread the good news". I simply wanted to wear it without the concern of whether or not it was visible to others. Anyways you are entitled to your opinion as am I, I'm not trying to tell you that your wrong. I just happen to feel that whether I keep it to myself or show it to the world should be my decision, not someone elses.

I'm not anti-god or even anti-religion, I am merely anti-pfft

Let me preface this by saying that I am not religious or spiritual in any sense. People say "Look around you; how could everything have just happened without a plan?" I look around me and have a hard enough time believing in all I can see; adding a being that could plan such a thing is even more beyond my belief or understanding.

However, I came up with the following metaphor that helps me sympathize with those religious people who prosytelize. Imagine that you are standing on a corner, and you see a blind person about to step in front of a moving bus. Would you just stand there and watch it? No, you would warn or stop that person. Now imagine that you know (in your heart) that someone's soul would be tormented for eternity because they couldn't see the danger of ignoring God. Do you expect them to stand by idly when they might be able to prevent that?

I too have noticed a number of posts in the past in which athiests act like their personal beliefs are virtues and religious beliefs are ignorance. If Einstein can believe in God, it cannot be pure ignorance. For myself, I do not believe in God. I do have the wisdom to realize that while the existence of God is not provable, hence the tenet of faith, neither has His existence been disproven, and I have no more claim to knowing the Truth (with a capital T) than anyone else.

Torrid, I think that what happened between you and your school principal is appalling. Separation of church and state means that the state has no right to impose ANY religious opinion on the people, whether for a certain faith, or for no faith. Except for practices that break other laws. Sorry, Aztecs.

In principle I agree with you Torrid, and I wish that humanity could live up to our ideals where such things wouldn't matter... but they do matter. We spend so much time organizing ourselves into tribes and making war (figuratively and literally) on other tribes. I don't view religion as ignorant. Some of the smartest people I've ever known have been quite religious... but I do view religion as something that teaches people to find their strength and rely on something outside of themselves instead of something inside themselves, and I don't think that's a good thing.

A religious person has the choice to send their children to a parochial school where their beliefs are intertwined with learning. An atheist has no such choice unless they want to home school their children. You're not the kind of influence I would worry about Torrid, but I feel that evangelical christians definitely would be a bad influence on my kids... or at the least contrary to what I want my kids to learn... which is to find their strength within themselves and their own rational minds. I'd like my kids to grow up seeing their peers as equals, not as cliques based on different mythologies, races, or ancient territorial disputes. I feel the best way to foster that is to allow public schools to be a neutral place where such divisive symbols are stripped away so that the focus is purely on what makes us the same, not what our ancestors slaughtered each other over. When kids are old enough to make intelligent choices about what they choose to believe then I'm all for self-expression... but not in grade school.

And when it comes to muslim head scarves... I can't help but wonder if women would choose to wear them if they weren't indoctrinated into it from birth. The symbolism is offensive to me because it's an insult to THEM. They've been taught to be ashamed of who they are and to hide themselves from the eyes of men and the eyes of God. What kind of god would demand such a thing? Does he hate women? I don't want to provide a safe harbor for that with my tax dollars. I feel the same way about the concept of original sin. How do you teach children to believe in themselves and their abilities while at the same time teaching them that they're worthless sinners who should spend a good portion of their lives on their knees begging for forgiveness? Children should be allowed to grow up free of such things until such time as they can truly and freely choose for themselves. And if the public schools are not that safe neutral harbor, where is?

Yes I think its great if a child can go to a school and not have to worry about being left out or feeling below his/her peers. I hated cliques in school, people juding you based on what you wear, your hair, what you drive etc. I honestly hope that my children can attend a school and feel like they are on equal ground, someday maybe that will happen. As far as what I believe, I will not try and force it on my children, it will be their choice and I wouldn't want anyone else forcing something on them either. I have my faith but I also believe it is wrong to not have an open mind . Would I be labeled a Christian, yes, but I am probably unlike any other Christian you have met. I actually understand what most of them don't, their understanding got lost in the mix of hipocrites, threats, cliques, media, money, corruption, etc. Somewhere along the line being a Christian became "dressing up and going to church on Sunday and sometimes telling people they will go to hell if they don't get saved". I don't know what happened to compassion, understanding, unconditional love, patience, humility, and generosity. Ah well, we all must live this life as we see fit. What does that jewel song say? In the end only kindess matters, yeah that's it.

oh yeah and eggy PFFT

Tor..... try the same situation... (wearing a religious symbol to school or work...) with a pentegram.

I sympathize... honestly. But what you're expressing is exactly the same issue other people have been dealing with for years.

<<while it may be silly to think of an old man in the sky who somehow has interest in your genitals, it is not nearly as silly to propose that the Big Bang was the work of a sentient being.>>

But it <i>is </i> nearly as silly, IMO, to propose that the universe was created by a sentient being who has an interest in what I do with my genitals. Or indeed, who has any interest in me whatsoever. Such an idea is so absurd that IMV the idea of polka-dotted unicorns dancing on the rings of Saturn is believable in comparison.

In case anyone was wondering what the hell I was talking about in the previous reply, the answer is that I did my usual thing of forgetting I was reading the first page of a discussion and replied before I realised that things had moved on a bit!

Must be why I like ya so much

well i didnt read the whole thread (hey its 5 pageswhat do you expect!)but in short "france can go to hell".

this absolutely rediculous,its about persecuting religion,this isnt seperation of church and state,its founded in anti religious feelings.

you do realize that a muslim girl is not allowed to wear a simple scarf on her head under this law right?

what if that girl cant afford a private school?

should she then be FORCED to basically denounce her religion and be humiliated in public by not being able to cover her head like she is used to?

and at the same time people are allowed to wear rediculous things to school such as pounds of chains and ripped clothing.
how the hell does someone wearing a scarf over their head effect anyone else?

hey im offended by that blue shirt you're wearing go put on a red shirt,you cant wear blue shirts except in your own home away from public view.

this along with the language police in france and they still ocnsider themselves a free country? hah what a joke.

As my first post to this thread, this comment is utter irony. If you're too lazy to read a lousy five pages, you're probably too lazy to think through your thoughts and come up with a well formulated opinion, let alone read a good book.

actually no ive already debated this on a few other forums lol.

i just thought i'd toss in my opinion on the matter nothing more.