How can US residents defend their government?

How can anyone defend a government that blindfolds Germans, flies them to prison in Afghanistan, beats them up and dumps them in Albania six months later, tortures Britons, making them believe that their family are being tortured in the next room, and bombs another sovereign state to pieces, all so that those in power can make money from the oil there?

I'm only American through misfortune of birth don't blame me. I think most of the things our government does is stupid at best and evil at worst.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1390080,00.html

Americans should read this kind of thing - it'd make a change from the fucking vacuous shit their news broadcasts to try and hide it.

What does this have to do with trashing valentines day?

Nothing. If you don't want to discuss the issue, go to another thread.

I take it you're a Briton, Charlotte. Are you saying that the Guardian, of all journalistic outlets, is unbiased and objective? Not that the American media are any more reliable, but have you considered that there may be some spin going on over on that side of "the pond" as well?

Although I by no means condone what's going on WRT these or related allegations, let's not forget that just about every European nation has some flavor of despotism in its past. That by no means grants the USA a free pass to have its own fling with tyranny. It does seem, though, that many in Europe are far too quick to judge without taking into consideration the broader historical context.

All that said, I personally am starting to resent all of this finger pointing -- as if we, the peon American citizens, have any more clue about what's really going on than our foreign counterparts do. Do you seriously think that, once we're made aware of the full story, that we'll all just say "oh, well" and strike an ambivalent pose? Impacting US policy at the grass-roots level is like steering the titanic: It's slow and arduous, but with persistent effort, it can be done. Trust me, my elected representatives know my name. I am not silent, and I think there are plenty of others out there like me.

How about we work together to make a better world instead of wagging fingers? Or, would that require that we actually get up and do something constructive vs. armchair quarter-backing world events?

But trashing valentines was waaaay more fun!

Paolo Right On!

Charolette many of us do not defend or support this administration and are actively involved on the local, state and national levels effecting change! Members of the Bush administration are hypocritical radically conservative fucking Neo-Con power hungry war criminals that will be impeached and tried. There is a well educated and passionate resistance movement growing daily in America and it is just a matter of time before the people take the power back!

What he said.

We are not all going to say "I had no idea those were concentration camps!" A lot of us are trying to fix this.

I think that since the advent of "the Cold War", a large part of the executive apparatus of the US Government has been actively working to make this very thing more difficult. In many ways, Harry Truman would be as much to blame as any other US President.

On the other hand, you could say it all goes back to Alexander Hamilton(not a president but very influential) if you wanted to get historically nit picky.

Either way, the "American System" is much less responsive to the people than one might think, not living here. Even if more than half the population hated what was going on it might not change very quickly.
And the media makes sure at least half of them don't even know.

Same here Charolette - unfortunately a good portion of Americans never see these articles or accusations from their media. A large portion of Americans won't believe that their government is even capable of doing this until it begins to happen in America.

And... I truly believe that with Bush in office and Gonzalez as Attorney General, that it will begin to happen right here in America to Americans as well.

I'm just hoping that by the time the majority of American's realize what this administration has done, that it is not too late. Corrupt people do not surrender power easily.

At least 48% of us who were eligible to vote in November don't support the recent acts of our government.

We are there for the oil....really?

Lets see we have pumped billions into iraq and yet we havent taken any oil out and out gas prices are still up around the 2 dollar mark. Yes, you must be right.

I don't condone most of what this administaration has done but get your facts straight and check your own government before you start pointing fingers. Seems The British have beaten and torurede a few prisoners as well.

Ye gods! Two dollars a gallon! Try paying ten, like we do.

Oh, and that great big lump of concrete you own in Honeoye is an eyesore

Hehe, so true. We North Americans have no idea just how spoiled we are, when it comes to fuel prices. I mean, cripes, we still bathe in gasoline, over here... what do you folks wash with, these days?

I know you pay more dear but as we were paying a lot less and the prices havent come down that means no oil is being pumped into our economy.

I'm glad you love the lump of concrete and its also nice to know when you haven't got a clue about your arguement you'll resort to attacking in world structures

This from a citizen of a nation that for years ran the biggest drug cartel in human history and destroyed whole civilizations with it, enslaved half the world under a brutal empire, executed those who opposed it, improved class oppression and racism to its highest level, and didn't have the fish-and-chips to face up to aggression when it counted before either world war.

Come to think of it, sounds like America, Britain, France, and Germany all had or have the same foreign policy. Question of degree, I guess.

Our foreign policy is cruel, often inhuman, full of mistakes, selfish, and destructive. Before you became our camp followers and devoted puppy-dogs, your foreign policy was much worse. And Germany and France? omg!

You Euro's had your chance. Now it's our turn to mess up the world.

added this >>

Interesting sidebar discussion topic: As for America's long-term Iraq strategy, I've heard that one of the primary goals (aside from protecting the flow of black gold) is to establish a strategic outpost to keep countries like Syria and Iran in check. Any thoughts about this possible angle? I'd be curious to hear what others have to say, whether you feel that it's justifiable, and/or if you think it would really make any difference.

This is waaaaay too shrill for me to even fully consider the question.

That's because you see the small picture, Talen. The PNAC agenda which was written up by the likes of Rumsfeld, Wolfiwitz and Perle back in '98 calls for a bold Imperialistic US move against the mideast (specifically Iran, Syria, Iraq, and Afghanistan) to control the world's oil supply. The goal specifically being an answer to Peak Oil and China's ability to aquire adequate oil supply to become the major superpower of the globe. We are now seeimngly poised to take action against Iran from a two front war eminating from Iraq and Afghanistan.

It's about Oil and Imperial conquest. Meanwhile the shortfall gains of Iraqi oil is being pumped into the insatiable corporate pockets of Haliburton and Bechtel to the tune of 100 Billion dollars a day. They have no interest in sharing the wealth by bringing any savings in gas to the average american peon. The goal is to have "Freedom on the March" whether it is welcome or no.

This isn't conspiracy stuff. It's out in the open. PNAC even posts their plans on the internet for all to read.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

Grab some coffee and be prepared to tear out your hair, mate.

So the only reason we are at war in the middle east is the need to make Haliburton and Bechtel billions? I have no doubt certain people have agendas but I fifnd it hard to believe this is the only reason.

obviously you only skimmed my post looking for a rebuttal.

The goal is Imperialist hegemony and manifest destiny of the globe....duh.

The Project for a New American Century is pretty blatent. It's not exactly secret - they are open about their aims.

yup -- I laugh my ass off at folks who say I'm spouting conspiracy here.

Doesn't it infuriate you that the mainstream press never picked up on PNAC? The neo-cons couldn't possibly be any more blatant about their goals. It's not "spreading freedom." It's hegemony. They want the United States to be so far ahead of the rest of the world militarily that no one else will bother to try and keep up (translation: fear of China). heh, and people thought the cold war was over