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Sounds like someone we know =P (Alternative 9-11 theories)

Cottonteil Muromachi
Abominable
Join date: 2 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,071
08-09-2006 01:26
From: Aodhan McDunnough

Punch a hole that high up, it won't be very oxygen deprived. The way the building was made and the way it was damaged ... yes, it will fall straight down.

800F is easy to reach. Your ovens at home easily reach 400+. Don't even need the aluminum mini-flares.


Which part of science makes you think that you need only 800F to compromise steel?

Aluminium melting point is at 1220F.
Structural steel melting point is at 2800F.

Aluminium can only hope to melt steel if it was involved in a thermite reaction with the oxide of another metal, like iron oxide. But for a thermite reaction to ever occur, provided there was enough iron oxide in the vicinity of the aluminium, it needs to hit 4000F.
Kerosene isn't sufficient to push it anywhere near this.

There was however, lots of evidence of a thermite reaction deep in the basement with lots of fun molten stuff dug up weeks after. Not at the top of the pile.

Its an oxygen deprived environment when you see the fire churning out lots of smoke. Meaning its fuel rich. Also some basic science.

The towers had a central core. Doesn't hitting it from the side make it want to collapse sideways? I've never seen someone chopping a tree and seeing it bury itself vertically downwards.
Aodhan McDunnough
Gearhead
Join date: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 1,518
08-09-2006 01:48
From: Cottonteil Muromachi

There was however, lots of evidence of a thermite reaction deep in the basement with lots of fun molten stuff dug up weeks after. Not at the top of the pile.

[1] Its an oxygen deprived environment when you see the fire churning out lots of smoke. Meaning its fuel rich. Also some basic science.

[2] The towers had a central core. Doesn't hitting it from the side make it want to collapse sideways? I've never seen someone chopping a tree and seeing it bury itself vertically downwards.


[1] Looked it up. Very well, a possible demolition. However, still not sufficient evidence of a conspiracy because either "side" could have planted it. A question here though. Is there footage that shows how the individual floors (as in the floor surfaces) collapsed? A thermite cut/explosion in the basement would cause the floors to implode in an almost parallel fashion while a collapse from above will show a descending wave collapse.

[2] The collapses took place 47 and 105 minutes later. That's more than enough time for sideways energy to be dissipated. The buildings were designed to withstand impact from a plane (but not impact and fire), so they have enough stability to shake off the sideways impact.

Whether it was the terrorists or a conspiracy, it was an elaborate setup.
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Cottonteil Muromachi
Abominable
Join date: 2 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,071
08-09-2006 02:01
From: Aodhan McDunnough
[1] Looked it up. Very well, a demolition. However, still not sufficient evidence of a conspiracy.

[2] The collapses took place 47 and 105 minutes later. That's more than enough time for sideways energy to be dissipated. The buildings were designed to withstand impact from a plane (but not impact and fire), so they have enough stability to shake off the sideways impact.


The conspiracy is hidden behind the reason why everyone was constantly fed weird versions of how the plane caused the demise of the building. Why ship all the WTC debris to asia as recyclable raw material in such a short period of time?

It would have been far easier to explain it based on a demolition set up by the country's own government to garner enough excuse for multiple invasions into the mideast. I've always believed that humans are an expendable resource especially in large countries with a high population, and this is a good example.

I gave the tree chopping example, because as explained by the official media, it supposedly damaged some of the structural columns along the side it hit. Trees do not fall from the impact of the chopping. They fall because you remove some of the material on the trunk, and it falls under its own weight.
Aodhan McDunnough
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Join date: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 1,518
08-09-2006 02:34
From: Cottonteil Muromachi

[1] The conspiracy is hidden behind the reason why everyone was constantly fed weird versions of how the plane caused the demise of the building.

[2] Why ship all the WTC debris to asia as recyclable raw material in such a short period of time?

[3] It would have been far easier to explain it based on a demolition set up by the country's own government to garner enough excuse for multiple invasions into the mideast. I've always believed that humans are an expendable resource especially in large countries with a high population, and this is a good example.

I gave the tree chopping example, because as explained by the official media, it supposedly damaged some of the structural columns along the side it hit. Trees do not fall from the impact of the chopping. They fall because you remove some of the material on the trunk, and it falls under its own weight.


[1] At this point I'm still not fully convinced about the thermite thing because the upper part of the south tower tipped over before collapsing indicating an imbalance in the supporting structure at the breaking point rather than an outright failure of the central supports.

[2] Now that part is a small bit of evidence for conspiracy.

[3] It's also possible that OBL planned it that way, that is a demolition combined with a plane-collision spectacle. True it's easier to explain it with a conspiracy theory, but easy explanations are not always correct. What I heard is that OBL used to be funded by the US government until something went horribly wrong. So at this time, I'm still tossing a coin.

What I'd like to see is a video that shows how the individual floors fell, particularly those near the ground. The floors are hard to see because of the vertical columns of the building, but the falling sequence should end speculation as to where in the building (basement or high up) the real failure took place.

As it stands and using the outer column failure as reference, the failure began where the planes hit. As to how the support failed (impact, heat, or something else) there's nothing clear. A demolition from the basement IMO should have caused the outer columns to distort while the building was collapsing. But they didn't. All the columns below the collapse front were parallel. The outer columns were all connected to the central core by steel supporting members. If the core moves the outer columns should distort.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/Qinvagh/wtc_collapse1.jpg

Ref: photo. At this stage of the collapse there should be visible distortion in the vertical columns of all the lower levels if a basement demolition took place.


Hmm ... and I think we're taking this thread too off topic already. It's supposed to be about the professor's possible dismissal.
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Cottonteil Muromachi
Abominable
Join date: 2 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,071
08-09-2006 07:29
From: Aodhan McDunnough
south tower tipped over before collapsing indicating an imbalance in the supporting structure at the breaking point rather than an outright failure of the central supports.


It was tipping over. Shouldn't something thats in the process of tipping over continue tipping over and falling over the sides? Moments after that, it went straight down as dust instead.

From: Aodhan McDunnough
It's also possible that OBL planned it that way, that is a demolition combined with a plane-collision spectacle. True it's easier to explain it with a conspiracy theory, but easy explanations are not always correct. What I heard is that OBL used to be funded by the US government until something went horribly wrong. So at this time, I'm still tossing a coin.


I don't mind hearing that Osama and gang used them in combination if they found out that was the case. All the more reason to hate them. However, it was never portrayed as so. Why would anyone want to hide the methodology in which the terrorists brought down the buildings?

From: Aodhan McDunnough

What I'd like to see is a video that shows how the individual floors fell, particularly those near the ground. The floors are hard to see because of the vertical columns of the building, but the falling sequence should end speculation as to where in the building (basement or high up) the real failure took place.


If you asked a professional in the controlled demolitions field and told him all the video footage was of a building downed by controlled demolitions, the person would agree and even describe to you in detail fairly easy how it was done.

From: Aodhan McDunnough
Hmm ... and I think we're taking this thread too off topic already. It's supposed to be about the professor's possible dismissal.


It isn't off topic. You have a professor here who is demonized for questioning the truth. What he is teaching may not all be correct, but at an institution of higher learning, there should be more leeway to let the student themselves decide what to believe and what to question.

For example, you used to believe steel weakens at a very low temperature and doesn't even conduct the heat away at all just from reading what you read online. Even though it was quoted by someone else, that was coming from a supposedly reputable source like Scientific American that didn't even question this simple fact.
Olympia Rebus
Muse of Chaos
Join date: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 1,831
08-09-2006 08:26
New Oliver Stone 9/11 Film Introduces 'Single Plane' Theory

The Onion is always on top of these things. :p
Artillo Fredericks
Friendly Orange Demon
Join date: 1 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,327
08-09-2006 09:19
From: Aodhan McDunnough
The heat from the burning plane fuel and aluminum is enough to weaken that core, and the impact of the upper floors coming down is enough to buckle the lower parts.


That has already been disproven and IM-FUCKING-POSSIBLE. Jet fuel (aka mostly Kerosene) does not burn anywhere NEAR hot enough to sufficiently weaken ANY of the steel in the towers. But believe what fictional physics you will.

the so-called "pancake collapse" theory has been discredited by many many people already.
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Aodhan McDunnough
Gearhead
Join date: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 1,518
08-09-2006 09:32
From: Artillo Fredericks
the so-called "pancake collapse" theory has been discredited by many many people already.



1. The central structure of the south tower broke approximately at the point where the plane impacted. This is borne out by the fact that the building segment above the break listed very very visibly (see photos of south tower just before the final collapse) before the building collapsed.

2. All photos and videos of the collapse show the outer column supports of both towers being perfectly parallel all througout the collapse. This can only happen if the collapse was pancake style. The outer columns are linked to the central column and if the central supports sank or swayed (as per basement bomb theory) then the columns along the outer shell should have shown some distortion. But there wasn't any. See photo I attached in previous post.

Fact is the break had to occur at the points where the planes hit in order for the buildings to collapse exactly as they did. Now how the break occurred you can still speculate (plane, flame, added bombs, whatever). But what I cannot deny is the break taking place at the upper floors.
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Lorelei Patel
was here
Join date: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 1,940
08-09-2006 09:33
I'm not a structural engineer, architect or steel specialist. Are you?

So, I tend to turn to people who actually know about such things:

From the American Institute of Mining, Metallurgical and Petroleum Engineers.:
From: someone

Nearly every large building has a redundant design that allows for loss of one primary structural member, such as a column. However, when multiple members fail, the shifting loads eventually overstress the adjacent members and the collapse occurs like a row of dominoes falling down.

The perimeter tube design of the WTC was highly redundant. It survived the loss of several exterior columns due to aircraft impact, but the ensuing fire led to other steel failures. Many structural engineers believe that the weak points—the limiting factors on design allowables—were the angle clips that held the floor joists between the columns on the perimeter wall and the core structure (see Figure 5). With a 700 Pa floor design allowable, each floor should have been able to support approximately 1,300 t beyond its own weight. The total weight of each tower was about 500,000 t.

As the joists on one or two of the most heavily burned floors gave way and the outer box columns began to bow outward, the floors above them also fell. The floor below (with its 1,300 t design capacity) could not support the roughly 45,000 t of ten floors (or more) above crashing down on these angle clips. This started the domino effect that caused the buildings to collapse within ten seconds, hitting bottom with an estimated speed of 200 km per hour. If it had been free fall, with no restraint, the collapse would have only taken eight seconds and would have impacted at 300 km/h.1 It has been suggested that it was fortunate that the WTC did not tip over onto other buildings surrounding the area. There are several points that should be made. First, the building is not solid; it is 95 percent air and, hence, can implode onto itself. Second, there is no lateral load, even the impact of a speeding aircraft, which is sufficient to move the center of gravity one hundred feet to the side such that it is not within the base footprint of the structure. Third, given the near free-fall collapse, there was insufficient time for portions to attain significant lateral velocity. To summarize all of these points, a 500,000 t structure has too much inertia to fall in any direction other than nearly straight down.


From the Civil and Environmental Engineering Department at Berkeley University
From: someone
Based on the field investigation and study of drawings and other design related documents, it is the opinion of the author that the highly redundant exterior tube of the World Trade Center with many closely spaced columns was able to tolerate the loss of many columns and support the gravity while almost all occupants who could use a stairway escaped to safety. The collapse of the towers was most likely due to the intense fire initiated by the jet fuel of the planes and continued due to burning of the building contents. It is also the opinion of the author that had there been better fireproofing installed to delay the steel structure, specially the light weight truss joists and exterior columns from reaching high temperature until the content of the buildings burned out, probably the collapse could be avoided and the victims above the impact area rescued. Finally, in the opinion of the author, if the walls around the stairwells were stronger and the stairwells were not all located at one place, many of the victims who were trapped in the floors above the impact area probably could find a useable staircase and escape to safety.


From a structural engineer at Stanford University
From: someone
"Steel is born of fire," Hamburger explained. "As it's reheated, it expands and loses its rigidity. Above 1,000 degrees Fahrenheit, it loses a significant amount of its strength."

He said the extreme heat from the fires might have caused the steel floors to expand and bow, which may have caused the support columns to bend inward and buckle. Heat also may have caused the steel flooring to separate from the columns, or the columns themselves may have heated up and buckled outward.

Hamburger and his colleagues have not yet determined which of these scenarios occurred on Sept. 11, but there is little doubt that the collapse of the upper floors of the WTC towers brought down both structures.

"Think of the impact of dropping a 25-story building straight down," Hamburger told the audience. "It was like a pile driver, which is why it collapsed as it did."
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Aodhan McDunnough
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Join date: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 1,518
08-09-2006 09:42
@Lorelei

Thanks for the quotes.

As for me, I am an engineer. Even though my training is electronics, all our engineering courses require the study of some structural engineering. I also taught the basics of such for several years.

And as I indicated in my previous post, the anecdotal evidence (two photos) reflects exactly what all of Lorelei's quotes say: WTC was a top-down collapse.

Now what broke the structures at that high point? We only have best guesses.
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Cannae Brentano
NeoTermite
Join date: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 368
08-09-2006 13:21
This about sums it up best.

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons

From the same site.

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons#FURTHER_READING

For further review

http://911myths.com/


Although Charlie Sheen does believe there is a conspiracy

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2006/200306charliesheen.htm

"Sheen questioned the plausibility of a fireballs traveling 1100 feet down an elevator shaft and causing damage to the lobbies of the towers as seen in video footage"

Charlie Sheen qualificiations include being a high school graduate and a recovering alcoholic. He is the star of a TV series and has appeared in several movies.
Alex Fitzsimmons
Resu Deretsiger
Join date: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,605
08-09-2006 13:40
From: Lorelei Patel
No, I really wasn't sure. Still not, entirely.


Oookay. Basically, I was just saying that it would not surprise me in the least if an easy target were used to make the entire 9/11 research movement, as a whole, look like a bunch of silly foil hat-wearers (mind you, many really fit that stereotype, but some also very much do not). Maybe that's not what's happening here, but it was my first impression.

To be honest, after a closer look, I think I might have reacted too quickly. Yes, I do overreact occasionally. :p
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Lorelei Patel
was here
Join date: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 1,940
08-09-2006 14:04
From: Alex Fitzsimmons
Oookay. Basically, I was just saying that it would not surprise me in the least if an easy target were used to make the entire 9/11 research movement, as a whole, look like a bunch of silly foil hat-wearers (mind you, many really fit that stereotype, but some also very much do not). Maybe that's not what's happening here, but it was my first impression.

To be honest, after a closer look, I think I might have reacted too quickly. Yes, I do overreact occasionally. :p


Hm. Actually, as I was reading it, I think the writer did a good job of not portraying him as a "nutjob." The instructor came across as reasonable -- though in my opinion, wrong.
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Alex Fitzsimmons
Resu Deretsiger
Join date: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,605
08-09-2006 14:17
From: Lorelei Patel
Hm. Actually, as I was reading it, I think the writer did a good job of not portraying him as a "nutjob." The instructor came across as reasonable -- though in my opinion, wrong.


Yes. I'll freely admit that I jumped on it before I read through. It's hard not to get defensive when you've gotten so sick of being lumped together with the David Ickes of the world.
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Lorelei Patel
was here
Join date: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 1,940
08-09-2006 14:23
From: Alex Fitzsimmons
the David Ickes of the world.


Ickes. So appropriately named :cool:

By the way, did you ever read the book Them by Jon Ronson? The guy hung out with Ickes and other ideological extremists and wrote about the experience. Even went along with a guy who tried to crash a Bilderberg party. It was a good read.
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Alex Fitzsimmons
Resu Deretsiger
Join date: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,605
08-09-2006 14:59
From: Lorelei Patel
Ickes. So appropriately named :cool:

By the way, did you ever read the book Them by Jon Ronson? The guy hung out with Ickes and other ideological extremists and wrote about the experience. Even went along with a guy who tried to crash a Bilderberg party. It was a good read.


No, but I might someday, I suppose. ;)
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